America, the land of the free and the home of the brave country. Undeniably deep
right now, the question on a lot of people's minds can Americans come together and heal.
I'm Dan Jones and this is Uncommon
Ground.
Welcome back to Uncommon Ground. This is a show where we are exploring what it takes to make change in a country that is as divided as our country has become. Now look it's no secret. I am a man of deep Faith. You know, I take my faith seriously. It's really where I find Community. It's where I find my home and recently I've noticed something which is I think more and more people are feeling alone. They're feeling that they don't have community.
And they don't have a home, more people are feeling isolated and I wonder, is there some connection between the old faiths warts and all breaking down and people feeling more adrift people feeling that they don't have a community at all but you know what, their people see it. The other way, there are people who actually are glad that America is becoming more secular, do think that religion has caused more problems than it could ever solve and think that we'd be better off with you.
People going to church and more people doing other things. One of those people is Sam Harris. He is a neuroscientist. He's and authors of podcaster. His first book, the end of Faith, outlines his clash between religion and reason in the modern world simply, but he is not a fan of religion and he thinks there's a value in some kinds of spirituality, but he takes it deep issue with the way that religious folks like me, see the world and they think the world would be a better place if we replace religion.
All together with rationality,
dogmatism is always an intellectual sin in science and in you know and in a actual ethical debate about facts in the world or the real effects on the happiness and suffering of other human beings. I mean, that is when you say, we'll listen, this is just the Dogma. I'm going to not evaluate. You sound like a maniac except in a religious context. Where you're saying this this part of my belief system, the most important part is off the
Table.
And so I want to talk with him because this is one of those divides in our country that we often don't talk about enough. And I think this is one of my toughest interviews, because we just see things so differently. But the end of the day, I do deeply believe he's trying to figure out just like I am. What does it mean to live a good life? How can our society be better? How can we all be more? Ethical, I'm trying to figure that out. He's trying to figure that out. So even though our answers might be different and they're coming from this,
Same basic set of questions which means it's worth sitting down and talking to him and people like him, no matter what side of that, divide your on and listening and trying to figure out where we can find Common Ground. I'm very excited for you to hear this conversation that I had with Sam
Harris.
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Brother, Sam Harris. Are you doing,
brother? Hey, van. Good to see you. Finally, think I wanted to do this with you years ago. So, or at least pre
covid. Well, we finally got a chance to do it now and whether he's I wanted to talk with you is because I mean people are really I think in a world of hurt right now we've got a crisis on top of Crisis wrapped up in crisis deep-fried and some more crisis. It's just really really the external environment is so difficult with the pandemic with war with shooting.
With ecological Despair and I think a lot of people are needing to and wanting to turn within. And I'm a person of Faith grew up in the black church as most African-Americans, My Generation did. So, what I turned with, then I go to my prayers, the, when you turn with, then you maybe go to your meditation, but we're both turning within, I want to talk with you because a I want, I think that the Uncommon Ground Community could benefit from your wisdom and knowledge about
Where and how to find some peace and Equanimity on the one hand. And I also think that a big factor in some of the social unrest is the fact that the country is going from being more faith-based to being more secular. And that process is also creating some upset and some drama. So since you're one of the foremost atheist in the country, you can talk about that secularization process, and because you want them or most spiritual leaders, I guess is a term has been applied to you. You
Talk about the other process. That's why I want to talk to you. Hope that makes
sense. Yeah, we're For Better or Worse. Were somewhere near my wheelhouse here
so we'll get. Well, let's just, you know, start at the beginning. I mean, thank you came onto the scene, with your book, your kind of Mega bestseller, the end of faith. That was big 2005. It's hard to believe. It's been that long and as a result people started calling you. One of the leaders of the new atheist movement is that a term that you like? Is that a turn that you kind of embrace? Is that a weird term to you or you apart? Are you a leader of the new atheist movement?
Yeah, I mean, it's definitely not a current term that I think about much, but it really had named mostly just a publishing phenomenon back in two thousand, four, five, six, seven, one a bunch of us had best sellers that were on this theme. The theme of the clashes. We saw it between reason and Faith or science and religion. And my thinking really hasn't changed except I was always do. We were treated me and Richard Dawkins, and Christopher Hitchens and Dan Dennett
More or less is a kind of a four headed person, right? And that ignored many of the the differences between us, we were United in feeling that belief without evidence and certainly certainty without evidence is intrinsically dangerous, and that there really is only one area of human culture where that kind of certainty is celebrated as opposed to derided or criticized. And that is organized religion. So, so we're we're on the same page there, but
Always been very interested in the the far end of the, the positive Continuum of human experience, which includes what we would generally call spirituality, right? Eight states of mind like self-transcendence or unconditional love, and, and in my view, it captures, everything that people want and are right to want in religion, right? And it certainly captures the psychological and social phenomenon, that gave rise to the world's religions.
So when you ask yourself, just what kind of person was Jesus that he could have had that effect on so many people in his direct contact, you know, while alive or Buddha or any of the other, you know, matriarchs are Patriarchs of any faith. There's a psychological phenomenon. There's a social phenomenon there that I think we want to understand. We want I think we want to actualize a personally I would just argue that that at this point in human history in the 21st century. Sectarian organized.
Parochial religion is not the way to do that and perhaps we can talk about that but I absolutely share your concern for this moment in human history and in American history, in particular where we're dealing with a massively fragmented Society. There's a fundamental unmooring with respect to the the deepest questions in life. The existential questions around what it means to live a good life. How do we Shore up community of diverse strangers? Effectively, how do we have common projects? How do we make sure?
Sure that the whole human project is one of truly open-ended cooperation and collaboration rather than just further fragmentation and violence. And these are all questions. That I think unite everybody. I just would argue that we only have human conversation by which to navigate these apparent impasses. And what I would urge upon us is that we Avail ourselves of all of the best ideas in human history, without regard to tradition, certainly without regard to
You know, any kind of real tribalism and sectarianism. So for instance for someone to say well I'm a Christian and that is my ground truth. Ethically spiritually epistemologically. And I'm it's non-negotiable right. There's no evidence or argument. I want to hear that puts any of my core beliefs into doubt and for Muslims to do likewise and for for Hindus to do likewise and all of them have at bottom, you know, some similar claims. But also at bottom when you're really going to get into the sectarian claims truly are irreconcilable.
Xylitol differences. So insofar as you put push deeper into those. Certainties the basis for conflict. Never evaporates and so and the basis for real collaboration. That's truly open-ended for us at this point is to acknowledge that they're deeper principles at work. Here that have to be understood in 21st century terms and we need a human conversation that uses the best ideas, whatever their provenance. You know, I love Jesus and half his moods and if you're going to say, what about the golden rule? Or what about The Sermon on the Mount? I'm going to
Love those passages, but at no point, is it required to believe that? He's going to be coming back to judge the living and the dead or, you know, Rapture, the good people. That's where I think we need to get off the ride and yet the baby in the bath water of religion can absolutely be saved. Because again, self-transcendence unconditional love, these are real possibilities of our
minds. You know, I understand what you're saying. And as a person of faith, I don't recognize my own experience in your in your story.
I don't mean about the tenants of my own faith. I mean, about people's ability to work together, according to you, if people are strong Christian, like myself and strong Muslim, and it's wrong way that we can't work together. And that's just not been my experience. In fact, my experience has been quite the opposite that the people who I've been able to be most effective working with have been a different than me. Be often motivated by their own religion and religious faith on the
And the right and we've got a lot of stuff done. And so I think part of the challenge is that one can be securing them in their non sectarianism. I would imagine if other stories don't get, don't get to play out. So for instance, you know, for me it's because I'm a Christian and believe that, you know, how we treat. The least of these as Jesus said is how we're going to be judged that I was especially interested in working with incarcerated people, homeless people.
The addicted, The Afflicted, the convicted, and I found in doing that, work that I cross path with a lot more conservative, Christians in that work. A lot more Muslims in that work. A lot more Buddhist, frankly, in that work. That there is a place where people of faith can work on really tough problems together and make real progress. And I think that's one of the things that I'm, I'm just curious about, like, for you, you know, someone like now, dr. King
Will you can't separate what it is contribution to western civilization from this Faith, or a Malcolm X. How do those people land for you? And would you have the same concerns if dr. King were still around and you had a chance to work with him and just how does this play out in real life?
Yeah, so just to be clear, I am not denying that Interfaith cooperation as possible. I mean, obviously that that's true. And I'm not denying that people aren't occasionally or even frequently motivated to do good things on the basis of their religious beliefs. That's
Clearly true. Right? So that it all of us indisputable there's a few things that confuse this issue one is that when you serve a history and even the present, most people are people of Faith, right? So when you're talking about, you know, people doing anything you're talking about, mostly people believe, who believe in God are doing those things could good or good or bad, right? So, it would be accurate to say that basically every bridge that has been built, and every hospital that's been built and every road that's been paved, etc. Etc, has
Done. Mostly by people of Faith. Now that doesn't suggest that faith is required to do. Those things is just suggested, there's been nobody else to do the job. There's no I wouldn't conclude anything really on that basis. What I would argue is that, yes, while people are occasionally motivated to do wonderful things on the basis of their faith. Faith generally speaking provides bad reasons to do good things when good reasons are actually available, right? So it's one thing to go to Africa to help.
You know, in a volunteer organization to feed people in refugee camp, you know, during a famine say, because you think Jesus will reward you in the afterlife or etcetera, because it's an expression for Christianity. It's another thing to do those things simply because you care about other human beings, you know, simply motivated by compassion without any metaphysics associated with it. And I would argue that that ladder motivation is possible and more desirable in the end because it doesn't come with any attendant.
Ideological baggage and the problem with ideological baggage, the problem with dogmatism is, you can never be sure what harm is going to cause, I'm either, you can take the most benign seeming dogma. And it can suddenly
surprised you do you think dogmatism is only available to people who are people of faith? I mean, in other words, I agree with you, dogmatism is terrible. But middle ism is terrible, but I see dogmatism and fundamentalism in secular parts of our society as well. And I see frankly, an open mindedness and
News of Faith as well. And I wonder if in your concern and I think well-grounded concern for abuse of the faith and for fundamentalism you don't over focus on some of the downsides of fundamentalism when it comes to people of faith and Overlook a bunch of other dogmatism, we got done which is all over the place down. We
will have what we don't have is any other area of culture, where Dogma is a good word, right? Dogmatism is always an intellectual sin in science and in you know,
And in an actual ethical debate about facts in the world or the real effects on the happiness and suffering of other human beings. I mean, that is when you say, we'll listen, this is just the Dogma. I'm going to not evaluate. You sound like a maniac except in a religious context where you're saying this this part of my belief system, the most important part is off the table. It's the changing of the rules of honest, self reflective self critical conversation that
I object to and it does it is a fundamentally different game to leave everything. Open to evidence and argument. And that's why it's self-correcting and it's correcting by the antagonism of other people, right? Like if you so if you can say something that is so clearly right in this conversation that it puts one of my cherished beliefs in check if I'm not available to being persuaded by you and I just double down and triple down in the face of that pushback. Well, maybe I'm so self-deceived that I
Walk away from this conversation, satisfied with how I played by end of it. But in front of your audience, I'm going to look like a moron, right? I mean that's what it is to be, not actually responsive to a good argument and good evidence, right?
Good. Can I suggest that you're making a claim? That's almost religious right now in that you are of a particular belief about human nature debate discourse rationality I see very little evidence that the world Works in way you just described.
Well I don't again.
We're going to agree about how unusual it is. Certainly in politics to see people reason honestly, right? But intellectual honesty is still an ideal that we hold to right? And when we see somebody like Trump come on the scene and lie about everything, right and pay no price for it among his own tribe, right? That is so galling because it's such a violation, not only of what should be possible, but it's a violation of the
Sims, we recognize that guarantee cooperation and collaboration. The only thing that guarantees that our conversation is truly open ended and can remain a conversation and can remain civil, right? The only the is the possibility of persuading other people on the basis of facts and arguments. Otherwise there's just an appeal to force at the end of the day
or love that the other. The other thing is that there's reason there's violence and then there's
love. Well, I
I love is even setting a higher bar there, right, mr. Yet love. I'm not discounting the importance of love, but when you're talking about people on two sides of an argument on two sides of a table who and they're trying to figure out how to move forward. I mean, this is morality for us. Really is generally a question, collectively, and even individually of what to do next right? What should we do? What can we do? What can we agree to possibly do? And there we have conversation. And yes let me put put as much love in there as you can.
As you can smuggle in by all means. But when you have, you know, 340 million strangers, effectively in a country trying to figure out what to do next, we need to be able to talk to each other and the most shocking pathologies we see.
I would argue are forget about the problem of theocracy and religion per se. There's a similar style of thinking that affects everything else in our politics. And when you look at the crazy conspiracy thinking, right? When you look at Q and on, when you look at how we can't even have a conversation about vaccines, because there's so much disagreement about basic facts, and so much spinning of facts. And then, Noble lies told in the face of crazy.
Conspiracy theories, hoping to do some good and then that those get exposed, and then you have trust in institutions bottoming out. We need to default, somehow to honest conversation and I'm not. So I'm not saying it's not, it's not ideal, it's absolutely an ideal that is broken, you know, every minute of every day in our public discourse but we still recognize it as an ideal and that's that's what I'm arguing for.
I have less confidence than you or less the lack of a better term less Faith than you in rationality because in the experience of my family and my community, there are a lot of rational people who were able to rationalize slavery segregation etcetera, and the added stalemate there, the questions around, you know, should slave owners be paid reparations, if they, when they lost her slaves. I mean, because they listen, um,
Property rights Etc. So rationality I look at with less confidence in you do because I've seen rationality also misfire and what I have seen also quite miraculously is the irrational, sometimes went out in a good way. In other words, love is very rational and, you know, dr. King and Ella, Joe Baker and vanvleet Hamer. There was a way that there was a leap beyond the rational and to something else that open the doors.
To freedom for people who I and you care a lot about now, you're right to say well that you don't need the theocracy for that. You don't need theology for that, you can. But the way that we articulated that which is why it's dear to me was that we took the dead letters of the Constitution and a Bible that somebody handed us. And we use both, we use the the legal arguments of the Constitution, especially the Amendments. And we also found in
Faith that have been handed to us and that our faith, a way out of no way. We didn't March out of shopping centers to move the country. We marched out of church houses and we were singing church songs and there was some power in that that's hard to explain. But I think we had marched out at shopping centers or libraries. I think somehow we would have had less success for me. There's a beauty to a gospel song. There's a, there's a genius to Howard Thurman, reinterpreting the gospels to
Dignify enslave people, there's a genius and a beauty and wisdom and a magic there that I worry gets thrown away and then replace with nothing except for meditation and reason. And I worry about the loss to the Human family of that. I wonder if you want to have the last word on this point and then we can move on to this just as mighty as my concern resonate with you in any way.
Abby, I share your appreciation for much of culture that is religiously inspired.
And I'm not disputing the power of certain ideas to motivate social movements, right? So yes, marching out of a church is different from March out of a shopping mall, right? But I would challenge your assertion that love is irrational. Love is one of our most valuable experiences, arguably the most valuable experience, right? And it is totally rational to want more of it in your life and what you want to see more of it effective in the world.
And in fact, I would say that reason, rightly construed is the guardian of love.
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today.
Well, the guy I want to move to just some of the other things that you know, a lot about. You know, there is a sort of light at the crossroads now of Science and spirituality for lack of a better term, the power meditation, the importance of it psychedelics there, certain states of Mind are certain states of being that are Transcendent for people that are healing for people that make it more possible for us to have a human civilization. That is worthy of either way.
Right now, I'm sure not sure that the human civilization we have is is very human or very civilized. But, you know, there is this pathway that's lighting up where I think science and spirituality are coming together. What's most exciting for you? Right now in that conversation,
why? I think the again, I'm really focused on questions. Like what does it mean to live a good life? You know, and what does it mean to be a good person? And there, there are many levels.
That which we have to answer that question. There's not just one level and meditation for me is a very important piece and that's the kind of thing that you know, I spent a lot of time talking about over at waking up the meditation app. When you're going to talk about the personal level, I'm just what is the difference between happiness and suffering personally in any moment? So much of that is a matter of the difference between being lost in thought and not, right? And until you learn how to meditate until you learned how to actually pay attention to the flow of your own.
Thoughts, you can't that's not even a difference. You can notice, you were just going to by default be lost in thought you're going to be thinking without knowing that you're thinking, I mean, is this so much of your experience of the world is captured by this conversation, you're having with yourself, and so your regret, and your anxiety, and your disappointment. And, you know, all, it's just, it's all anchored to this automaticity, which goes on inspected. And when you, when you look at it closely enough and you can
Wake up from your this identification with thought then another degree of Freedom opens to you. I mean, you can honestly ask yourself. Well, how long do I want to be angry for right? You know, something will happen in the world, you will have a thought and the feeling of anger will get kindled and for most people, they will simply stay. They'll stay as angry as they're going to stay for as long as they're going to stay that way and it's completely haphazard there waiting for something in the World to Change or they just have to live with the half-life.
Of this emotion. But once you know, how to actually be mindful of your thoughts, you know, IE meditate. You can get off the ride whenever you want. And you can notice that anger has a very short half-life. I mean, it's actually impossible to stay angry for more than a few seconds unless you rekindle it again. But by thinking about all the reasons why you have every right to be angry. And so we have to learn how to pay attention to the most important problems. But again I think we
We should want to use all of human ideas, the best of them, whether they come from the Bible, or the Quran or from, you know, the latest scientific conference to orient ourselves toward a future, where we find a truly durable basis and been flexible basis for collaboration. And again, I think I think rationality and intellectual honesty on the one hand and love on the other are the guard rails for us, right. And we just we need a
Positive orientation toward one another and the future. We have to recognize that there's no zero some conflict between wise selfishness and selflessness. Right? Because why is selfishness if you really going to get selfish, if you're really going to try to figure out how to be happy in this world, where everybody dies eventually that entails that project entails at bottom, self-transcendence it entails. Be waking up from the dream of narcissism.
ISM. And self-concern and finding a world in which you really want other people to be happy to write. It's not all about you. It's not even mostly about you in the end. So we have to escape ourselves. We have to escape this tractor beam pull of selfishness and self-concern in every, in every moment, really, and we can do
that agree with you and you have a way to do it and I do as well. I mean, when I love to see me and you and a black church with a big guy,
Choir around us. I think we I'll put that right next, right? Next to the mushrooms and turn the chest self-transcendence.
If you add those two things together, I'm sure be quite an
experience, amen. He's quite experienced. Look, I am my last question is just, you know, there's there's a decline of religion religiosity, which, you know, gives us some advantages but they're also, there seems to be a loss of community or meaning our or something, and then therefore,
A knock-on effect, may be more anxiety, mental health as we jump off of one structure that was in perfect, but you see at least you had some meaning, you had some, some Community had weekly rituals you had, you know, stuff that your parents did, your grandparents did something as we burn that down, as if you do get some freedom. But there's also a loss of something else. And there's a, do you see a link between this rise of anxiety and mental health? And the decline of these
I mean, how does it has it all play out in your mind?
Why? I think the bigger piece is a fundamental breakdown of trust in institutions? I mean, I think that's even bigger than this loss of community, which I also worry about. And that's a kind of a subset problem. I think our inability to talk about anything important. Now, without getting plunged into conspiracy thinking and just obvious delusion, right? And and and the way in which social media amplifies the worst in us, right? And
it's just every all the incentives are wrong and the mainstream media can't seem to course-correct in light of the, you know, a failing business model that still relies on clicks. It's really pernicious and I it is what is fragmenting community to a large degree because it used to be. I mean when you lived all your life in in the quote real world, you know, the brick and mortar world. You know, you could only spin out so far without the people around you growing
And, and with, and without you, finding any support for your crazy infatuation, but online, you can always find 500 people who are just going to say you go, girl, you're our kind of crazy, right? You come on you know come down this rabbit hole and stay here for the next decade and you what your when millions of people run that psychological experiment on themselves. You see the result, you know, and we're seeing the result everyday and if the result is shattering our politics and obviously, you know much more
More about that than I do. And it's so I am quite concerned about this and, and I do think the remedy, you know, has to exist out in the real world, with the, you know, real community building but it also has to exist in our reforming, what we're doing online together because the thing that scales is what's happening online. I mean, people it's easy to say that Twitter isn't real life but increasingly it is right? It increasingly it? Determines what the New York Times does
next, right? And also even
And for someone like yourself, I think more people now, know you for the app for the waking up a plan for the book. So, you know, I do think that we've got to figure out a way to use these tools for good. Yeah. And
it just because it's the only thing that scales I may just say you and I having this conversation, you know, like in the real world you and I would just if we decided to do an event on stage together, you know, and the best possible case we would sell out a
S of Auditorium. Right? Let's let's say we could sell out Madison Square Garden, right? I'm going to be amazing if we could do that in front of 20,000. People, we're talk, but 20,000 people is nothing for a podcast, right? So it's like we have to we need remedies that actually scale and change Minds at
scale. Well, you know, I think if your job is to change Minds that scale, you've been doing really well and I think this dance between all of us who are seeking within who worry about tomorrow, who really think fundamentally people
And human beings can do a lot better than we're doing. It should just keep talking because none of us got this thing figured out yet. And we have a long way to go. If we're going to dig out of this ditch of you know, ecological destruction. Democracy decline is that we got multiple, you know, dishes that we've all fallen down, which which humble I think all of us. It also discipline our efforts so that we try to be serious and we try to be sober minded and yeah put you at the top of list of people in the country who were taking this
Stuff. Seriously and leaning for it with actual integrity and trying to fix this stuff and I greatly appreciate you.
Yeah to be continued van the real real pleasure.
We see the beauty of hope that spirit is so beautiful. Those who become American citizens love this country even more. And that's why the Statue of Liberty lifts her lamp to welcome them to the golden door.
All right, that was a tough. Now, the tough conversation for me but I'm so glad that I did it. You know, I am not religious about my politics, obviously, I'm not yum. I work with a lot of people in the left and the right. I am religious about my religion and so I come out of a black church. That was our only Refuge. We would be worked from sunup to sundown. So can't see in the morning till can't see at night. Six days a week.
During the enslavement, but we would have a few hours on Sunday mornings to be together, and to celebrate life, and to remind each other that we matter. And that we were children of a high God, and that nobody could do anything to us, that would make us less than that. And so that faith that got us through hundreds, of years, of brutal and slave. But and then another hundred years of terrorism at the hands of the Ku Klux Klan and other groups is
is dear to me and I know its power and I worry that we're moving into an era where honest people can't distinguish between that kind of faith and fundamentalism and and yet it's so important to have these conversations, you know, for me progressives in particular I think have to figure this stuff out because the Democratic party just as a practical matter wants black Christian voters like myself just
In very long lines. And every election often brought their on Church buses to vote and they want Catholic Workers to come out of union halls and vote for Democrats. They want black and brown Christians to respect the Democratic party. But people in Democratic party too, often are having a hard time respecting. People a safe. And that's a big problem, because we need each other and we need to have room for each other and respect for each other.
We've got to keep talking and at so much respect for Sam. Here's when he came out in 2005, that was not an easy conversation that he started. And he's been able to carve out some more space for himself. And for people who think like him that they are now a very powerful growing force in our country. At the end of the day, I think Sam and a lot people like him have good intentions. They are trying to figure stuff out and if he can be on his meditation, Matt, and I could be on my prayer mat, and we both have good intentions outside.
Really all you can ask for but you know the earth is made of stone. The world is made of stories. Some are sacred summer secular but they all count in the all matter and we've got to keep sharing our stories and that's a point in this podcast and I appreciate you being a part of the journey. I'm Dan Jones is Uncommon Ground. See you next time.
Uncommon Ground with Dan Jones is an Amazon. Original production is produced by Magic Labs media and wonder media Network, our producers are Teddy, Alexander Myesha, Dyson Grace lunch. Taylor Williamson, add a sua, a juvenile and Lindsay credible are managing. Producers are Laura, D. And Eliza Mills, our executive producers are Ginny Kaplan and Morgan Jones. Our theme music was composed by the grand mess. Publicity for the show is led by Alice's. Oh, Andy.
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