On this episode of the Ben Greenfield Fitness
podcast, like you're my goals, tell me what you do, right? Take whatever, time you need to take and throw it through whenever machine or whatever combination of that and he need. But then tell me what I should do to achieve my goals. You know what it is, you're excited about what you kind of think the
future will look like about the fitness industry as a whole, from your perspective as an investor or somebody who's involved with it on a personal
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I don't know performance nutrition, longevity ancestral, living biohacking and much more. My name is Ben Greenfield. Welcome to the show.
Well, every so often I get the opportunity to interview, someone who you may not consider to be some type of Fitness Nutrition, Health longevity, biohacking, expert physiologist. Scientists, but instead a super intriguing and super successful person who utilizes a lot of these Concepts in their own life, and today's guest is no exception. So I think you'll dig this show. My cookbook is now available on Amazon in case.
In here, that's right, boundless cookbook, which is chock-full of everything. From Wild plant recipes to superfood, smoothies to bio hacked cocktails to Crazy. Meet rubs, its all there now, and it's mouth-watering, taste bud, entertaining goodness. So, check it out. Boundless. Cookbook.com is where you can find out more about the book. But it's also available now that I mention on Amazon, it's available on Kindle. Audible know who wants an audio cookbook? Come on, although actually does have a lot of I've rode a lot of
Strrrike content in there about like the science of the recipes, you learn as you go but there's no audible version available. However, it's available on Amazon, it's available at boundless cookbook.com. This podcast is brought to you by the wonderful Folks at organifi. They have this supplement called gold, it's a powder. And if you called a supplement of powder, a functional food, which makes me sound really smart or what, but it's got tumeric. Ginger reishi mushroom, turkey, tail, mushroom, turkey, tails, super interesting that thing
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All right, folks, my guest on today's show is Keith graboid. Now, if you're involved in the financial industry in any way whatsoever you're probably familiar with this guy, he's not familiar executive, he's investor he's been instrumental in multiple startups since the early 2000s, he's provided seed Capital to
Companies, like Airbnb and lift and YouTube, and wish and Yammer. And he also co-founded an Open Door, which, which is a home selling startup and has led Investments for door - for stripe For Thought spot for a firm for even Financial for Piazza and he's a he's a former PayPal exec as well but he's also and this is something that perhaps flies under the radar, just a little bit, pretty keen on things like Fitness and
Sleep and heart rate tracking and personal optimization to the extent that I thought he would be a great guest to have on today's show because it's often quite interesting for me. Always to hear how guys who are super successful from a business and a financial standpoint but also happened to be healthy and fit managed to pull that off. And it's always interesting when I get somebody like Keith on the show because you know, you go from the white coat.
During lab scientist and some exercise physiology lab to the actual person out there, you know, managing a job juggling, a lot of tasks and still being able to optimize their body and brain. So as you hear Keith and I chat today, if you want to access the show notes for anything, we talked about any resources, anything like that, you're going to be able to find him over at Ben Greenfield fitness.com Keith. It's Ben Greenfield fitness.com. / Kei th Keith welcome to the show man. Pleasure to be with you.
You, yeah, yeah, I'm happy to have you on and, like, I mentioned, you know, I've, I've, I've heard you actually in multiple podcast interviews because I actually like to listen to some podcasts about investing and in business, I've heard you discuss how you do have a pretty intense, interest in Health, and Longevity, and fitness. And I'm just curious if you've always kind of kind of been into caring for your body or is that a, is that a habit that you've developed of late?
I've always been pretty convinced that there's a
On connection between how your brain forms, how your, how healthy your body is, and that there's not two different worlds that you don't just be, you don't, you can't be successful. And thinking, if your body isn't healthy and fit and in like, you know, obviously example to start with Baseline, fundamentals rudimentary. Basic principles is, you need to sleep in his sleep to be healthy and you need to sleep, to perform, mental tasks. But in fact there's more connection between your Fitness level
And your heart rate and your ability to think and be creative and be decisive. And so, all those connected, all of these things together in my life and try to integrate them and made the made them a priority. So I don't think I'm trading off work in technology and investing and entrepreneurialism versus health and fitness. I think their symbiotic and I try to maximize my performance, just like an athlete would just the way I deploy. My sword skills is slightly different in measured by different metrics that are
Athlete would, but that the training program, the regiment, the thinking behind is very, very similar just like the best athletes. They're pretty optimize on their athletic performance, but the sum of the Delta is in their mental performed, their mental ability. Yeah. Those also that that translates back into my world, my professional world. But say, yes, I've been getting eight hours sleep, for example, for all of my
life. Yeah, I definitely talk a little bit about sleepy. You mentioned there that heart rate is something that you actually take into account.
Count and you hear people talk about cardiovascular health, for example, and blood pressure, and things along those lines. But getting into the nitty-gritty, when you say heart rates, what exactly do you mean by that? What are you doing with heart rate? Or I suppose with if you also are alluding to this, something like heart rate, variability, variability.
So I measure three things associated with heart rate, I have a resting heart rate to minute recovery and an HRV variability. So they're all used somewhat for different purposes.
Rest, your heart rate is a pretty good measure of overall health. It's not perfect but it's pretty good proxy. I was reading research last week. In fact, that it might predict your likelihood of suffering from cancer. Hrdi, use differently. I use hrp as a way of measuring, whether I'm over training or recovering enough. So I like to train twice a day but there'll be times when my HRV is lower than normal and I like back off the intensity of my training.
Until my HRV is in a more normal zone. So use that as a, you know, sort of a proxy for how much recovery rest of my getting against Hamas, extortion and stresses in my life and then the best single metric. I use that actually optimize my training for is what's known as a two-minute recovery, which is basically just means exactly what it sounds like, which is you take your body to his intense and exercises. You can tolerate and then stop. And then you see how fast and how strongly
Your heart rate of coverage after 2 minutes, if you knew nothing else about somebody but what they're too many recovery was, you could predict a lot about their health, not just a
fitness. Yeah, I remember taking the two-minute heart rate recovery test way back in exercise, physiology classes, you know, as a metric of how quickly the heart is able to actually recover post-exercise. Have you have you found meaningful methods to actually reduce the amount of time that takes the heart rate to recover after bringing yourself to maximum exertion?
Oh, absolutely.
Lutely. So most of my training is focused around increasing my to in a recovery and they're improving it which basically increasing the Delta and to high intensity interval training is probably the best way to do it. He'll incline running, for example, some sports are pretty good start and stop sportswear your Sprint. Stop start spring stop. So, soccer soccer. For example, can be a pretty good way to train, but I actually prefer, like,
These kind of high intensity training programs now, think like a Barry's Bootcamp style workout, and I found significant success by using those programs to improve
that. I actually, I've never taken a Barry's Bootcamp. But, you know, I totally get the concept of high intensity interval training with interval, of course, being the key for the heart rate recovery because you are pushing hard and then allowing the heart rate to recover and then pushing hard. Again, I personally do that typically, three or four times a week using, either the hell bike.
Out in my garage that are dying bike with the arms and the legs, or this machine called a vast /, which it's similar to a full body exercise machine, but it has Blood Flow, Restriction, cuffs on it. So, there's a little bit of an added variable there. It circulates icy, cold water through these Blood Flow, Restriction, cuffs, and it's a, it's a spendy little exercise that I think it's like a $70,000 cardio units. But in terms of high intensity interval training, it's kind of kind of next level. But this
Idea behind the amount of time that it takes the heart rate to recover in between these intervals and then the tracking of the resting heart rate. I'm curious if you've actually found that as your two-minute recovery time, improves, if you've seen that, your resting heart rate also drops accordingly or your HRV increases,
I think there is a correlation. I have noticed correlations in both of those over the years come in that are strict one-to-one mapping
Yeah, but overall is of improve my two-minute recovery. May my resting heart rate has dropped and major be has tended to improve.
Now, what would a typical workout look like for you? Like, if you were going to do specifically a cardio workout designed to enhance, two-minute recovery or some flavor of interval training, whether whether you want to describe what you're doing in a Barry's Bootcamp, or what you might be doing on your own? What would a typical workout actually be for? You
sure. Can I go work out about 50 minutes? And it's probably
Sub divided, roughly half into cardio and roughly half into resistance training to believe with weights. And and I'd swap back and forth. Every call it every six to ten minutes between the two. So imagine two or three sets of each, the cardio component would typically be a mix of jog run, Sprint, jog, run, Sprint, jog, run Sprint, so bring the heart rate up Max. Bring it back down.
Down not all the way but to you know so where you can breathe normal relatively normally and then Sprint back up and then very the incline. Sue. Try to do the same on a flat round. Flat kind of ground surface, and you have a see spring faster. Typically, but then increase the incline and try to maintain as much of the speed. And then there's different cycle is like, there are patterns of up and down. You can bury it like 30 seconds, 30 seconds at the highest intensity or 60 seconds, the highest intensity.
Me never faced fur side, kind of rotate that around some work for mental variety. I'm not sure how much the physical training part really requires that but in synchronized to music. So I think music has proven to be very effective for improving performance. It also is very effective for improving, emotional tolerance of intensity training, which is related. There's a lot of good studies. They're collecting the nice book written by professor of MacDougal on Stanford.
Called The Joy of movement out of the research on the effect of Music in particular kinds of music and athletic performance. So this is always my workouts. Are we synchronize with like EDM Style music?
Yeah. Have you ever heard of, by the way, a high-intensity repeat training instead of high-intensity interval training. Like they call it hurt versus Hit where you're only exercising for like 10 seconds or less. So, the concept here, you would reduce the amount of lactic acid buildup, but still allow for enough intensity to
Have a little bit of a cardiovascular stimulus. So it would be like you know, ten seconds, as hard as you can go. While you're out in a long walk, say like you know, every fifth telephone pole or something like that and then Total Recovery. But for a much longer period of time than you do with hit, if you're messed around with something like that,
I've never done that. I've done more something, maybe a hybrid in between, is 20 seconds of intensity and 10 seconds recovery, that seems to work. I would worry about the 10 seconds, whether you can really bring your heart rate up, I'd like to bring
my heart rate up to basically Max. I know most people guide you to like 80% of Max by like to bring it up like pretty damn close to Max. And I don't know if in 10 seconds in most activities that you could get anywhere, you might need closer to 20 seconds.
Yeah, that's the tricky part is because you know, until you're up to like 20 and usually even closer like 30 seconds. You're really not tapping into carbohydrate right here just splitting and splitting phosphagen. It's like the creatine phosphate genic system and once you get going
About 30 seconds or more you're burning sugar. But as a by-product that you're also producing lactic acid and some of the champions of this hir T versus the HIIT training. They're citing research that shows that you can get long-term degradation of the mitochondria and some heart scarring. If you're doing repetitive efforts that are 30 seconds in duration or longer part of the guy that talks about this the most is Russian kettlebell trainer named. Pablo that's a lean and all of his training is based around like 10 seconds quick Snappy kettle.
Bell swings. And then you're just kind of like walking around for a minute or so coming back and then doing those those short Snappy kettlebell swings again and I personally get the idea of being careful with excess high intensity, interval training, you know, especially these intervals that last longer than about 20 seconds. But I think that the doing a little bit of both to me seems to make sense like hit that super high-end super powerful, 10 seconds or less system. And then also work in a few workouts where you going 30 seconds or longer so you hit both both
There's really, I guess it depends
partially on what you're optimizing for. So if you're not optimizing for performance like think, athletic performance, I think I would be more sympathetic to the 10-second training. I'm not sure as I'm sympathetic for other purposes. I do agree though, that there is some Danger on the heart. Scarring is a very big and vigorous debate of actually been studying this. A lot myself. I think it's unclear to whether it's the test for like heart tissue scarring.
That are sensitive to high intensity training or in factors underlying like damage that even alone is a big deal. Actually interviewed five will cost cardiologist trying to get to the bottom of this and they have very conflicting answers.
Yeah, the most recent one, it was actually really recent was in the Journal of Applied physiology and I think it was just in June where they found that Elite athletes had mitochondrial impairment from their intense workouts. But these were folks, you know who were doing, we're talking like, you know, Ironman Triathlon?
Plus our per week level, with multiple multiple hits sessions per week. Whereas a lot of the research that I've seen on on heart health, with more moderate amounts of hit, you know, like a couple of Tabata sessions a week or, you know, a couple of hits sessions per week that or maybe, you know, 15 to 30 minutes in duration those seem reasonable and even even beneficial for cardiovascular health, whereas I think it's the excess hit that develops, the the problem with not only potential for
Mitochondrial degradation. But then some of the, like, the know if you ever gotten like a calcium scan
score. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly what I'm referring to is. There's a lot of evidence that Elite athletes score high on a calcium score, which is not what you want. It's actually, you know, normally quite scary. However, there's also some research that says it's actually not, it does of yours calcium, score is high. It isn't increasing. Your chances of you know a heart event. Yeah, the actually been debating with all these
No, you're actually right because I got a calcium scan score in La. Last year, I went down there and I wanted to do a story on what could a middle-aged man do when it comes to every last test known to science to find out the health of your ticker you know like like a flow scan score and resting EKG and exercise EKG etcetera and a calcium scan was part of that and the doctors were a little concerned because I think my score was around 35 or 40 and then upon further digging what I found out was that athletes who have high cholesterol?
CM it tends to be like this really small dense, tightly packed calcium. That is not the type of calcification that produces the same amount of heart disease risk as someone who has developed calcification due to, let's say, you know, chronic inflammation or or a poor diet or excess sugar or vegetable oil consumption or something like that. So it appears to be the patterning of the calcification being different in athletes and being an issue that despite a high calcium, scan score, doesn't really make you as
Prone to cardiovascular
disease. That guy that I had the same issue. I actually did get an initial screen on consoles, grows High, then was alerted to This research and you know, given my pain see to do this training at least half of my cardiologists are convinced that you're right. The other half still are a little bit more traditional and believe that any calcium score that's elevated as you know, a signal of significant cart, you know, risk for a primary cardio that but in any event I think
The more, the better, the more research that's being developed. Suggest your version is more correct. It is all like, you know, being developed in real time. One thing I do do though, back to the training, you know, where is the line? I definitely measure the total minutes per week that are in each Zone. And, you know, I maybe go close to the line of what's recommended. But typically will only be in the max heart rate zone over an entire week for somewhere.
Between 60 and 90 minutes. So that's not maybe not ideal a little bit too high, but it's definitely not. You know, at the, you know, crazy level where you're taking on a significant incremental
risk. Yeah. Yeah, I think it was James O'Keefe who was was the the exercise science researcher, who came out with most of the data, that shows really a, a ton of the risks in terms of exercise, decreasing life span set in when you're exceeding on a daily.
Just like an hour of moderate to high cardiovascular or 90 minutes of moderate cardiovascular exercise. And there's not a lot of people aside from again, like some of the Fringe Ironman, triathlete in the people are just hammering all day long, who are getting anywhere close to that. So I think I think the dose is the point in this case.
Yeah, the most I would do in a day that would qualify as in that range and be 40 minutes. So that now would be like a pretty intense
day. Yeah.
Yeah, and most people who can do high intensity interval training or think they're doing it for 60 plus minutes. Like, if you can do an hour of hit on a regular basis, you're a beast because like true high intensity interval training, those intervals are actually pretty tough. And most people who who think they're doing, hit our kind of like scratching the surface of how hard they should be going during the actual interval portion of the hit training.
Yeah, absolutely. I was looking at my workout this morning, which wasn't that rigorous I mean it was on the easier scale but I would do in news.
Only three minutes in a peak cardio zone is 15 minutes in like a true cardio Zone in 25 minutes in like, you know, free lightweight Zone and then four minutes to warm up. So the distribution is very different than a lot of people situated intuition. Where, what
are you using to track? What's your wearable of
choice? Yeah, I work at Apple watch partially because it's the easiest device to use for lots of purposes. I actually like the social features. I've maxed out, I share my data with 40 friends in track back and forth, so it's
Most social product and then I out, put it into an out, like all it's called zones, which is the easiest way to visualize the best up seeing for visualization of the data.
Okay. Yeah, I haven't heard a zones before also look that one up. So so when it comes to the other thing that you mentioned in your introduction, about a couple of things that you're that you're into tracking. You also mentioned sleep. Are you using the same thing for tracking sleep? The Apple watch.
I do not use Apple watch for tracking sleep first because I think of drains the battery. Secondly, it's also not
Very accurate to doing to track your sleep. It's really critical that you can engage in accurate, sleep, sleep stage discrimination, and any wrist-worn device, is not going to be very accurate for discriminating, REM, sleep or sleep sleep. And so most of my life, I've been using old-school zo zo devices 0 went bankrupt as a company like nine or ten years ago, but a mental doctor scavenger hunt together. A reasonable number of old Zoo machines. But enough found anything? That's accurate.
Enough for my tastes and seal. However, Founders fund. We recently invested in the company that is developing a head worn device. That will be more accurate than zo. That will correctly discriminate between deep sleep and REM sleep. I do use also in each Sleep mattress, which the major function of H signatures, is it lowers your core body temperature using cooling, which induces more deep sleep. But there is a
Be tracking and overall sleep tracking and editing the mattress inside, do triangulate some of that data,
okay? I didn't realize it had sleep was actually tracking that as well. You know, I use the chili pad which circulates the cold water under my sheet while I'm asleep. The thing that's kept me from using some of these more advanced mattresses and even some of the some of the head worn wearables, you know, measure. I think one that I looked into his dream that will measure the EEG signals, which as you've alluded to, that can be a more accurate.
Accurate Way of determining sleep stages then say, like some of these wrist worn or finger worn monitors. You know, the thing that's given me a little bit of pause is this idea of nervous system recovery during sleep and the idea of being unplugged from an appreciable amount of like non-native EMF while you're asleep, you know, Wi-Fi signals and Bluetooth signals bouncing around the room. So do you consider any of that stuff when it comes to your sleep
space? I haven't I'll have to investigate that.
Alright, I mean, I understand the logic or the concern, but I haven't studied whether the eight hours when you're sleeping, it's critical to be completely divorced from that how much damage you get from like an extinct mattress measuring HRV or some had worn device like dream. The one I funded is not dream but I haven't really studied that to carefully.
Yeah, generally what I look at is is whether or not something that is gathering data can be shifted into airplane mode, during sleep gather, you had
During sleep. And then, once you connect, like, I wear an aura ring for example, and I can just put it in Airplane Mode, it'll collect data, that I can upload that data the next day. And, you know, I've noticed because I had a, what's called a building biologist. Come to my home and do a walk-through, you know, with a meter of the areas of the house where there were there are larger amounts of say like you know, radio tower signaling cell phone signaling non-native, EMF, Etc. And one of the places that he recommended, I really focus on was the bedroom
Again, because that's where a lot of the nervous system repair and Recovery takes place during sleep. So if you can take that, you know, a third of your life, approximately when you want to optimize repair and be unplugged that it could be a prudent choice to do so. So I did that. And I actually did notice, you know, because I quantify a lot of this stuff to a significant rise, like, a five to seven point rise in HRV during the night of sleep, which would technically indicate, you know, a good impact on my shirt, parasympathetic balance. So
So I, you know, I am not this way everywhere, you know, like obviously my office is plugged in, we're talking on the internet right now. I use my phone but when it comes to sleep I just basically have this metric now we're when I walk in and I'll do the same thing in the hotel room. Now you know pretty much anything that can be unplugged or placed an airplane mode. I'll unplug or place in airplane mode and I found that to have a dramatic impact on
sleep. Interesting. Yeah, I'm going to have to test that out. That's a significant Delta H RV, Maybe.
The H3 can't really be put in airplane mode right now but I suspect the product iteration, you know, it should be able, you know, some some variant of that is definitely possible.
Yeah. And there's certainly ways to mitigate some of the damage. I mean, I mean, really the, I think the the main issue is according to what I've looked into that the calcium influx that occurs in the cell in response to some of the, some of the electrochemical adjustments and responses non-native EMF. So, if you can do things like supplement with magnesium.
Before bed, right? Which I'm told is that, yeah, that helps to offset some of the calcium influx. I also do that, when I fly on airplanes, do it for the same reason and then two others, that seem to have an impact on some of those functions that get affected by non-native math during sleep are ketones. Like, not, I mean, you could be in a state of ketosis, obviously by adjusting, you know, the macro nutrient composition of your dinner or just like, taking something like, Ketone salts or ketones. Esters,
Sleep. And that's another one that I've that I've looked into and found to have a little bit of efficacy behind it. And then the last one is NAD, which is obviously pretty popular anti-aging molecule these days but magnesium the ketones in the NAD, seem to be the top three for mitigating, some of those effects of non-native. EMF. You know, if you do have to be exposed to that during night of sleep,
well, that's great because I actually naturally due to those three things. So I for many years done any D supplementation. And then
Significant magnesium proponent as well. So, I don't do the ketone stuff, but maybe I'm getting some of the benefits. Anyway, are some of the
offsets? Yeah, you probably, you probably aren't, and I want to ask you about your, your diet here in just a little bit, but what I thought would actually be interesting and this will probably Rabbit Hole as we go along, is we talked about sleep and we talked about your, your workout flavor of choice, but I'm just curious for you. What are, what are some of your big wins when it comes to your own day?
Life as far as caring for your body and brain. If you want to maybe walk the listeners through what your morning routine might look like or what, some of the things you might be weaving into your day at work. Might look like or even your evening routine, you know. I'm a interrupt you look at as we go
but yeah. The fundamental building block is starting to get our sleep, right? So I reverse engineer that into my schedules and just try to go to bed as early as I can and as consistently as a possible. So let's be to be specifics, a try.
I the fall asleep around 10 p.m. might drag Maybe by 30 minutes, but try to be as consistent as possible. And then I'll typically wake up, as you might expect, you know, somewhere around the 6:37 a.m. Zone. That leaves a little bit of a window where my body doesn't feel like it's stressed. That God forbid, I wake up in the middle of the night. I'm not going to get our sleep. So I like having a buffer typically don't have to set an alarm clock, which is there. Also a good metric for first. Are you getting enough sleep?
Andy, it's sort of. It seems for me at least I don't know. There's research on this causes lots of difficulty falling asleep. If I know I can just wake up at any time. Once I set an alarm clock, it causes like artificial stress, I think in my brain.
Yeah they've actually they've done research like that in medical students where they found that when they know they're going to be woken up, you know, to like when they are you went to the hospital or whatnot. And
And need to catch up on a few hours of Z's before their their back. But they're on call that sleep is disrupted. Even the mere fact of knowing that something is going to be waking you up actually disrupt sleep, which is super interesting because an alarm clock technically fall into that
category. Yeah. Well, it certainly has applied to my life, like, I sleep or sleep when I have to set an alarm
clock, right? For like a fight or something?
Yeah, that flight is typically. It's very rare when I set an alarm clock, certainly averaging at most once a week. So I think that's
I would sleep better, but it also ensures them getting the proper amount of sleep as well. So that's one technique. But then, I wake up and then I will typically immediately jump into a workout to when I say immediately, like, 30 minutes or so, you know, have all these supplements, all consumed, basically, wake myself up and then I will try to do an early-morning workout like a high-intensity program and then typically be the 50 minutes then I realized
A
shower. If you're doing that you're doing that fasted, that that work out in the morning.
I'm actually not doing it for the fasted. I know I should in many ways but I need, I feel I need so it's more of a mental crotch, but I feel, I need some energy and so I will typically have a protein bar of the, can you do 20 grams of protein 220 calories or something?
Otherwise I just feel mentally drained and, you know, psychosomatic maybe it's not real. That I go into a high intensity workout without any, you know, supplement without any food. I feel, I just feel weaker. I don't enjoy this feeling it. Surely would be better for body composition if nothing better. If nothing else, you know, to go into like a fasted state but I've never found, I can do it intentionally. Yeah I just basically give up on that and then I'll have a little bit of a castle.
Caffeine Spike, these days are used like a Celsius drink to get that caffeine Spike. If I have more time all like prepare Wicked a great ice cream tea
what's a Celsius drink.
It's a branded kind of combination. A lot of athletes are actually using the it's becoming a fairly popular brand is pretty obscure four years ago. You can find them in many places now. It's a combination of the active ingredient in green tea and
And mostly
caffeine K1 interrupted a show, you know, I'm honestly shocked every time I see a bodybuilder or so-called Fitness influencer or anyone else really promoting these things called Branch chain, amino acids or BCAAs aside from the fact that BCAAs can't only like three of the nine essential amino acids. Your body needs BCAAs can cause all sorts of issues like messing with your serotonin levels, depleting B vitamins, deleterious Lee, affecting your blood sugar, and a whole lot more. My opinion, these things are a waste of money and
That good for you. However, essential amino acids are a whole different ballgame. They're great for energy, for preserving muscle, especially during fasting, people use it to help them sleep. I take like 20 grams of for go to bed at night. It's like steroids, it's great for cognitive performance. It's like the Swiss army knife of supplements and I'm Blown Away by the number of people who talk to me at, like, airports are conferences or whenever I'm out in public, they'll come up to me. And they'll just be like, dude, those cannot aminos what the hell? What's in those? And I tell them, no.
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The interesting thing about like those morning workouts that are faceted, you know, I kind of ran into the same issue myself. And then I started doing basically like a carb loading protocol where I would I don't eat carbohydrates the whole day, right? So I'm in a state of fatty acid utilization, you know, burning ketones vegetables, you know, healthy Mediterranean style fats proteins throughout the day. And then at the very end of the day, I'll typically have anywhere from, you know, depending on the day's level of physical activity, a
250 grams of carbohydrates, right? With dinner will be a sweet potato. Yam rice, red, wine, dark chocolate. What have you? And then I get up in the morning and do a facet workout. And what I find is that, as long as I've had carbohydrates the night before typically kind of like, you just alluded to like the first two to five minutes of the workout. You feel a bit flat because you don't have the supplements in your system. Although I do I do, do some caffeine like I'll do some black coffee or a little bit of tea or whatever part of the workout. But aside from that,
No actual calories. And what happens is when you begin the workout, the adrenaline and norepinephrine everything that gets released as you start working out, that causes your liver and your muscles to start to dump some of the glycogen that they walked away from the previous evenings, carbohydrate feeding and so that bumps, your blood glucose up rather than you getting the blood glucose elevated from let's see a drink or pre-workout meal prior and once I started doing that, I began to be able to just crush the morning workouts.
It takes that evening carb refeed. And then, you know, I'll do a 12 to 16 hour overnight, intermittent fast, get up workout. Be able to burn those carbs from the night before and feel fine. But then, if I restrict, you know dinner or if I do, you know what a lot of folks are doing now or they'll eat at like 4:00 p.m. and then you know, to optimize sleep not eat anything after that, you know but for me if I have like a 7:00 or 8:00 p.m. dinner with a hundred, 200 grams of carbs and I'm working out, you know, 8 a.m. the next morning, I feel great so that that
That that's the flip that I switch to allow me to do the the fasted morning workouts and still feel like I could push the
envelope. I haven't tried the carb loading before bed sort of thing or dinner maybe I'll try that a couple days and just see how I feel like I do have this sensation often of the first three to five minutes, being the most difficult and then because of the adrenaline and all the other variables I find, you know, for example, I am a little sleep deprived or God forbid. I'm still hungover or something. The first three to five days are really painful, but I can make
Three that more time travel when I somewhat famous, among my friends for landing in the new time zone and immediately going from the airport to a high intensity training program. And similarly, once the adrenaline kicks in, I can handle it. But, and the first three days. Eight minutes are pretty
brutal. Yeah. Yeah, that does that. That's a suck because I find that much more. So for a post travel exercise routine than a early morning or morning exercise routine. I've even I've kind of shifted
Just basing this whole concept of, you know, are lying, radiation inflammation, and disconnection from the surface of the planet. Which is one reason why they've found for example, astronauts to be just so physiologically effed up. When they get back from space. Travel is actual disconnection from from the electrical conductivity of the planet. What I now do after I travel is it typically take the shoes off or wear one of those pairs of like, earthing or grounding shoes to keep you connected to the Earth and typically, for me now, it's either a long walk in the sunshine, or if I can hunt
On a body of water, that's, that's amazing. Like if I can go for a swim post travel, I'll choose that nine times out of ten verses hitting the gym, nowadays
that makes sense. That's certainly a natural sunlight is clearly an outstanding, one of the benefits of living in Miami, as I can find natural sunlight, much, more easily and much, more consistently. But I'm going to try the carb technique before dinner and then try a few days to not having a protein bar before my workout because it clearly is better for body composition.
In training to do that.
Oh yeah. I mean like that's um a lot of people ask me about fat loss throughout the course of the year and I think one of the best methods for fat loss is to wake up. Do your morning workout in a fasted state, right? So you're tapping into your own fatty acids versus any fatty acids are calories, you've consumed from a pre-workout meal and then I always finish with about three to five, minutes of cold, really cold shower, cold, soak cold, jump in a lake or river Ocean or
I can find your hotel or my house and the cold shifts, your body into a huge state of fat burning simply because you're burning more calories to generate heat. And I do that almost 365 days a year morning, fasted, workout finished with cold and specifically for body composition. It's just absolutely amazing.
Yeah. So, I very big fan of cold plunge, 54 degrees, you know, eight to ten minutes excetera post-workout
I don't currently do that enough, but I'm building into my house a cold plunge pool, that will allow me to do it every day. Unfortunately, the construction of it is taking much longer than it should with various permitting issues and Engineering issues, but eventually I will get it to you every day. So I've only been able to do it kind of ad hoc basis but I'm really looking
forward. You're getting one of those like cold plunge systems and your
house. Yeah I've used it before for athletic training.
When I travel for specific kinds of training, I have some friends who have access to one, so I really enjoy it. I found I haven't done it. Consistently enough to see the fat loss benefits, but I feel the benefit the next day, so I can do a very vigorous. Let's say legs workout squats, deadlifts lunges, everything. And if I can do a cold plunge, you know, sort of after the next day, I'm Frost ready to run right to play soccer basketball with almost no impact from the day before.
Straining. Whereas typically I would feel some lactic acid today after a heavy squat day and you know can power through it mentally on a treadmill or the high-intensity exercise but it probably has some performance attributes, you know, if I'm playing tennis basketball, soccer that I don't really enjoy their vacation, they're pretty excited about the cold plunge. I last year for dirk over. I went to Iceland for like 10 days and fortunately, we were living in a house that had a cold Plunge in the backyard.
There's able to use it every day and it felt great. I wasn't training aggressively enough to take to take advantage of all the benefits. One of the disadvantages to being in Iceland was, I was deprived of my normal workout program, but the benefit was as cold plunging every day
that it's kind of funny that you actually had to have a cold Plunge in Iceland. Although you know in Miami it makes better sense. I'm not going to rip you for saying that 54 degrees is cold because that makes sense. If you're a Floridian I keep mine at about. Well I have one of these like done for you.
Chiller system cold tubs. It's made by a company called marasco. It'll maintain like 32 degrees when it's 110 degrees outside, it's literally right. So my office, I can see it from here and I'll go, I'll go jump in that during the day. Sometimes a couple of times a day in the summer. It's like a full body cup of coffee and and it does have a lot of benefits. I think the only thing is that and you may you may have come across this as well. Is that research shows that as you've already kind of experience like the drop in core temperature and the drop in post.
Muscle soreness. Even next day is pretty profound, especially with cold water immersion, even more than like, those, those cryotherapy Chambers. There's some people though that's still a shoe that idea and and avoid the cold plunge, post workout because they've heard that it blunts, the hormetic response to exercise, like it blunts mitochondrial, adaptations or muscle growth. But I looked into the data on this and you you have to get the muscle Core temps to drop by something. It's like 3 plus degrees and that that takes a good.
Plus minutes in pretty significant cold for that to happen. So if you're just like jumping in a cold bath, for, you know, like I do like like 2 to 5 minutes after the workout, just to get the core temp down, you're fine, but I think the people who do themselves a disservice are the people who exercise and then get into cold for like 10, 20 minutes that that's where you see a law of diminishing returns or that's where you want to save the cold plunge for later in the day, like a few hours after the workout, after your body's kind of had a chance to mount its own endogenous antioxidant.
D fancy kind of upregulate mitochondria production. Everything is look for after workout and then you do the cold later on in the day. But a quick cold, cold, soak post-workout, you're spot-on. I mean, it's great for for the next day, soreness, and for being able to come back the next day, you know, just as
fresh. Yeah, I try. I try to match it tended, to keep it in the zone of eight to ten minutes, maybe 12 minutes. Absolute Max. I was taught but I'd never independently verified. That 54 degrees is like the ideal temperature. For this, that you don't really need to go colder too.
Get the benefits, you're looking for, but you're right, you're right in
that most of the research has shown that to get the benefits of cold. You got to be at 55 or lower, right? But the reason I go 32 is it's a Time hack because they've also done a lot of comparisons of longer soaks at slightly elevated temperatures versus shorter. Soaks at very cold temperatures, and you get the same benefits from just a couple of minutes at 32 degrees, as you would from 8 to 10 minutes and 55. So if I can get myself a
For eight minutes every day, by just going colder, water and a shorter soaked, even though it's a little bit more of a suckfest, I like to do it that way. But but really you get the same benefits either way. It's just a matter of how much time you want to
invest. That makes sense. That makes sense. But I am definitely looking forward to hopefully by January or so have this, you know, whole maybe earlier set up at my house and I can take advantage of
this.
Yeah, yeah, it is a pretty sweet setup. I'll be cool for you to have. So one thing I didn't ask you as you were talking about your sleep was like what? Before you go to bed, are you taking any any supplements to enhance sleeper? Do you have any like I guess bio hacks in the bedroom that you use to enhance your sleep besides that eight Sleep mattress?
Yeah, so I do have several things and none of it's like, well, very few very few components are like rocket science or anything radical. But, you know, caustic like ambient temperature.
Recall, my bedroom, ideally 65, 64 degrees, blackout Shades, super than I'm asking, are eccentric cetera. All basic stuff consistent, sleep, I try to eat dinner. Relatively early, not the 4 p.m., but for all intensive purposes, I really like to be eating closer to 7 then, you know, later, not always possible. Certainly one disadvantage of Miami's people like like also in New York City. People eat out later. Yeah, but I will typically be on the earlier end of the spectrum.
If I can get 637, I'm pretty happy almost not really thrilled about eating past 8:00 p.m. because I think it does at the margin impact. My sleep second. I do take a supplement produced by a company called Thorn called recovery Pro which is combination of some of this design for recovering from training but also sleep sleep enhancement.
They recently discontinued recovery Pro. I think so I'm hoping he's Knocked Up on.
I think they remixed it okay formulation, but you can buy something Oxford. They also sell the stuff of the active ingredients separately as like a pill. This is like a cocktail you mix with water before bed, but in any event, I've been doing this for a few years, I think it's effective for me, don't really know. I take it back Museum supplements as we discussed on the ad hoc basis. So I have a jar sort of Supplements near my bed and for whatever set of reasons, I feel like I should take
Quan, I'll just grab it. I also do use one drug, that's been very effective for me, called Rotherham or oze R.E.M. That's designed for reducing issues with sleep onset. It's pretty magical. It's fairly underrated not that many people know about it. Even though I think the profile of the drug is incredible. It has almost no side effects and is extremely effective.
And so it's those on it's not like a diazepam, like a Valium.
No, it's so it has a very different impact. It's also allegedly non-addictive, but the good news and bad news is, you can't use it on an ad hoc basis. You basically have to take it every day, but I found it to be incredibly effective for me in both avoiding sleep, onset issues, where they used to suffer from, and time travel. So but it is the kind of thing that we can't just use once a
month. Yeah, so interesting. You know, I'm just looking it up right now, okay? It's acting on a similar mechanism of action as men.
Lehtonen. That's interesting.
It feels like melatonin on steroids in some ways, it's not exact. That's a simplification but directionally
correct. Yeah, that's interesting. You know I use especially when I travel as kind of like a sledgehammer for sleep to realign the Circadian rhythm. High-dose melatonin actually have this doctor in Florida, and I get a melatonin suppositories from him because they, they kind of slowly release into the system while you sleep. We're talking a lot like, it's like 200 to 300
Little grams of melatonin one of the side effects of that is, of course your little bit drowsy. When you wake up and and, you know, for the same reason that avoidance of blue light at night is a good idea because the blue light suppresses melatonin just getting blasted with sunlight as soon as you wake up, just that kind of banishes. All the grogginess that you get from high-dose melatonin prior to sleep. But, but that that Rosser, I'm doesn't leave you groggy at all in the morning?
No, I found it. I can't discern any difference between
Queen Roz. We were Roz Roman do sleep in natural sleep, unlike with melatonin, which I almost never actually used anymore, having read why we sleep in Matthew Walker. I think the proper use of melatonin is for time travel and time adjustment knob before, you know, General sleep issues. I think it does, it isn't effective for that because it actually doesn't align the curves of sleep and circadian rhythm correctly. But for readjusting to a new time zone its effect and I do try to get a 10 minute
Natural sunlight, every morning, ideally between 6:00, and 8:00 a.m. which is you know, the best and most effective time in Florida. It's actually pretty easy to do in other obviously living other places takes more of a conscious effort to do that. But I think I've never really found myself groggy in the morning with a lots of Taken extra supplements for. You know, some reason, the drug itself. Rose Room doesn't induce it,
right? That's interesting. Cool. I'll look into that one.
And then so we got your morning, you get that morning workout in with your pre-workout bar. And then, are you also having breakfast at some point after your workout depends on
the day? So what I'll do is typically post my workout. I'll have like a traditional protein shake and that's going to be kind of mixer protein, yogurt banana.
Something, you know, that type that may be sufficient for me. I mean it's probably probably talking 380 calories kind of size in some mornings that may be enough to hear kind of motivate me through lunch, some other mornings. If anyone where I'm going next, what meetings I have I may have a more traditional breakfast instead like eggs scrambled eggs, sometimes yogurt and granola that's pretty variable I'd say.
Maybe for we days a week. It's just protein shake and go to work together. Three days. It's more of a traditional
breakfast. Yeah. Yeah. And so if you decided to do that, that carbohydrate backloading, a carbohydrate refeeding in the evening. Then the only adjustment you need to make would be to instead of having things like yogurt and or bananas or blueberries or other forms of carbohydrates in the morning smoothie, you'd shift it. So it's more like, whatever, like nuts seeds or nut Butters or coconut milk or bone broth or Stevia or like all.
All all fats and proteins and then take all those carbohydrates. You'd normally have in the morning and shift them into an evening scenario. That's the only issue with doing that. Carbohydrate feeding is is you know, you can't have your cake and eat it too, right? So if you're going to save all the carbohydrates for the evening, you got to, you got to decrease them for the breakfast and lunch, feedings, but I'm, and that's what I do. I have a smoothie every morning at some point after my workout, typically, I wait around an hour or so just because if you fast for a little while, post workout, you get a little bit of an increase in growth hormone and testosterone.
I'll just put a bunch of ice and bone broth and Stevia and salt and you know, some coconut flakes and stuff like that. Like all all protein and fat based compounds in the blender and have like almost, you know, some people would consider to be almost like a ketogenic smoothie for my my post workout meal. And that allows me to save the carbs for the
evening that makes sense. I mean the one thing that I do differently is I was in, maybe there's more modern research on this. I still subscribing it here to the kind of the old school advice about having the protein smoothie within 20 minutes to finish in.
I work out so it's
accurate but like a lot of nutrition information that's that's trickled down, advice from the bodybuilding and the pro athlete sectors. Because if you do not eat within about 20 to 60 Minutes, following your work out, if you don't do that kind of like recommended protein, carb refeed. What happens is that if you are going to work out again within eight hours, the glycogen and amino acid levels aren't fully replenished to the
And to where you could throw down a really good workout routine within eight hours, but if you're not one of those people who's doing like a like a hard pro athlete or bodybuilder, asked, you know, to add a routine. I'm not talking about like, you know, a short workout in the morning and a sauna in the afternoon or something. I'm talking about, like, crushing it in the morning and then have a scrimmage or practice or another, you know, just rip you Wide Open Session later. On, in the day, what they've shown in research is that by eating ad libitum just by eating your normal diet for the next 24 hours after your workout.
By the time you get to the next morning's work out, everything is topped off, just fine as it is and your body's repaired properly and everything. So it kind of depends, you know and for most folks it's the pro athletes or the bodybuilders Etc, who need to worry about the prioritizing, the timing of the post-workout meal if that makes
sense. Yeah, that makes some sense. And so yeah, I think the way I would probably start applying that now, is on days where I'm definitely going to do to vigorous workouts to maybe prioritize the timing and then on days, when I know,
It is that you want? I marry work out. Yeah, just eat kind of my normal
diet. Yeah, yeah exactly. Yeah, that'd be prudent. Okay. So so you get your breakfast and I'm assuming at some point because you you appear on paper to be a successful executive, you are actually working at some point.
Yeah, unfortunately, I do do work, I do typically do a lot of meetings, probably call it somewhere between six and ten meetings a
day know when you're working. Are you are you one of those like treadmill?
Russian, you know, Pomodoro Burke's to swing kettlebells type of guys, like, are you moving to know today?
No, none of that. I mean, partially by meetings in my work is really Intel's conversations with other people and so I think that would be more distracting and so even if that even if I were convinced of the benefits I don't know if it'd be a realistic option. I do think there are benefits of standing desks Etc of experiment with those over the years but I'm still meeting with one people, one on one conversations, one on conference rooms.
People where that wouldn't really be very effective. I've read some recent research that was very intriguing, about the benefits of trying to do work while you're on a treadmill. But I don't know if it'll translate that well, to the kinds of things I need to do. Yeah, I just basically am separating that part of my life when I'm at work, focused meeting with colleagues and iPhones away. I'm just dialed into listening to what they have to say, you know, helping them turn address and solve and prioritize their problems and challenges and then
you know soon as I can escape that I'll go back to you know being healthy and focused on my own stuff.
Yeah. Yeah I think the treadmill research. It's mostly based on the idea. You know, in there were there was even the kind of like the ancient Greek practice of these walking universities where students would learn as they were wandering. You do get an upregulation of brain. Derived neurotrophic factor which coming Miracle-Gro for the brain. So if you're engaged in learning, like, let's say, you're going to watch it, I don't know it. A documentary, or even maybe you're going to review like a video of
Deck that somebody sent you or something like that. Then there actually is something to be said for for moving as you digest that because people to assimilate it better but if it's more of like a complicated board meeting or discussion or discussion that's a little bit more involved or something where you're not learning but you're also producing information, sometimes it can be distracting. Like like all sometimes do Zoom calls with my team and things like that on the treadmill but because a great deal of my work involves writing and authoring and working on articles, I I can't
Produce very great content. Well, I'm well, I'm moving, you know, for example, on a treadmill and doing those
types. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, unfortunately, their East are times when I'm trying to assimilate and learn and maybe I should be moving more, but I think I'm off often. You need to take notes and need to be interacting and I don't think the movement really works so well or these Stones created. You know, like a perfect product for that yet but the research is pretty interesting and fascinating us monitor the other where of it until
Recently. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. So you get through the workday and then I think you mentioned early on in our discussion that you try to do to movement sessions in a day or two kind of like workout ish type of type of sessions and
ideally. Yeah. So ideally after finishing my work, I will go to the second high intensity training. So my ideal schedule is one of the morning and one late afternoon or the evening. So that's what we do today. For example, I worked out. My first program was 8:20 a.m. to 9:00 10:00 and then I'm going to do
do another program. It's at 4:45 that's like ideal for me. Now sometimes I have to bash them more tightly together. Like logistically often on a weekend. For example, sometimes I'll actually do them back-to-back which is most of the time, the fish here. So from a functional standpoint, it's great. You have to do back to back, you know, shower once 114 Shake cetera. But I think my body actually prefers the recovery, you know, 48 hours or six hours or seven hours in between,
I agree. And that might be
Based on some of the nutrition information. I was sharing with you earlier about this idea of nutrient. Replenishment needing a certain period of time. You have to restore amino acid pools and for the nervous system to recover, Etc. So that's spacing of about six to eight hours at that works very well for me. Also you know, I'm typically working out sometime around 8:00 or 9:00 and then when I'm finishing up a lot of my work typically around like 5 to 7 p.m. if that's what I'm returning for another session. Although for me, I'll save the more complex. Like a lot of times I'll do something more cardio. Ish
Or sauna or cold pool etcetera in the mornings. And then for the more complex activities, like, let's say, weight training, you know, your body temperature, Peaks, your reaction time piece your testosterone, peaks, your grip, strength Peaks, all these things peak in the afternoon to early evening. So all do kind of like whatever the more complex routine of the day is typically later on in the day if I do have the luxury of time to do it to a
day. Yeah and then I would do that too. So on days where I'm only doing one, high intensity training program, then I will do strength training and that'll be
That is quick session, but very heavy weight. So it's the call, you know, the complement, to the stuff. That's the kind of activities that are difficult to do in a high-tech today's session. So I'll do 15 30 minutes heavy back-loaded squads pull ups heavy dumbbell rows Etc.
Yeah yep. Yeah. So when you finish that afternoon or evening workout, you know I didn't even ask you this but are you actually eating anything between breakfast and
And that work out. Do you have a lunch break?
I do. Well, I don't have a lunch break, but you have lunch. So I would say
sounds like lunch equals a salad and replying to
emails. Yeah, I will either be working through a lunch meeting where I have food, but, and consuming while I'm working or you're catching up on emails, definitely over lunch or maybe I'll get like a, you know, sort of 15-minute break and go grab a sandwich or something like that. But it's typically you know tightly compressed time.
And the utility more like a utilitarian wheel.
Yeah yeah. And and so you are basically working through lunch, you get the end of the day. You throw it on that workout and then as you're kind of like going between the workout and dinner anything else that you're doing in between that period of time to get yourself ready for your evening, wind down routine.
Yeah. Really, you know, ideally, I'll try to figure out some find some time to either catch up on emails and I've been in meetings all day with other people or
If, if I have 15 to 30 minutes spare I will read a book, like long form content. Sometimes they'll do that in the morning of extra time or excess time. Sometimes I'll take a nap that depends on finding at one time, pretty proficient a 20-minute naps, but I need to be in a place in environment where I can easily find it bed comfortable and that's not always possible. Like today, I may have time before we're at 4:45 to take a quick tour.
The nap and I'll feel great. I'll have more energy in my brain. All, you know, I'll be like much more alert if I can get a 20-minute nap in between.
Yeah, yeah, I agree like my, I'm a huge Napper and I'm at the point now where I'll just crawl under a desk, or a conference table, you'll just wherever I happen to be, but I always always in my work bag, I've got a really good sleep mask. I use one called The Mind fold, which is actually one that that a lot of like plant medicine practitioners will use to
completely block off light for a like a psilocybin ceremony or something like that. I'd found this mask and it just works fantastically. So he's as mindful mask like over the ear, noise blocking headphones. And then I've got this app called new column and it has like a, it's got a bunch of different options on, but it has this 20 to 30 minute power nap function on it. That'll just blast me off to the middle of nowhere. You know, even if there's a bunch of people talking in the room when I lay down with all that stuff,
On. And then typically I'll use at least one wearable that kind of blows you off to sleep. Like there's one called the Apollo, it produces this micro vibration around your ankle around your wrist. We're wherever you tend to wear it, and it will will induce a brainwave response that actually is very relaxing. So I'll put that on or there's this newer device called a happy and if you are that one, but use like a magnetic signal to simulate. I mean, you just wake from us, like, it will simulate theobromine or
Caffeine or nicotine but it'll also simulate like CBD or melatonin too much caffeine prior to battle simulate adenosine. And so typically for my naps I you know I'll take about three minutes just hook myself up to all that stuff and then I can go dead to the world anywhere on the face of the planet, but it does take some, it does take a little bit of Better Living Through science to, really be able to check out for mid-afternoon nap.
Yeah, I've never been able to artificially nap, if I can get a nice comfortable bed, the cool temperature. I can have it.
Really effective. Amazingly amazingly revitalizing nap but it have to try to find a way to sleep in some unusual environment. I just can't do
it. Yeah, yeah. I get it. Well, I uh, it's kind of funny because when I interview like business exacts or super successful people like you always at the back of my mind during the interview, I'm thinking, this is, this is a busy and important person. They probably have a whole bunch of important things to rush off and go and do. And so I want to be
Faithful of your time. However I would also be super amidst not to ask you as a guy who's actually not only in the investment industry. But also keen on Fitness about what some of the things you are excited about in terms of the future of the fitness, or the health optimization or the biohacking industry. You know what it is, you're excited about what you kind of think the future will look like whether it's like customization personalization, you know, home workouts. You know what what what are the type of things that
You excited about if you could riff for a little bit about the fitness industry as a whole, from your perspective as an investor or somebody who's involved with it on a personal
level. Yeah. So we've invested in a couple areas improving sleep and handsome. Sleep, I mentioned each sleep for example but that's not the only one. Anything that would improve the quality of sleep. I think has massive benefits for Health Fitness, basically happiness for huge. It's probably the single best thing we could do for like you
In performance is to increase the quality of sleep. Second, we also like to invest in areas that could extend human life span. That's an area that I think is very raw, and we're just seeing the first generation of Founders entrepreneurs and companies there. But obviously, be very interested personally, and professionally in that area Home Fitness we have invested in. I think there's some benefits to investing in the whole thing.
This world. But it's not clear to me yet. When the world's reverse back to normal, how much of that's durable, how much of that is just becomes part of a hybrid mix. So, you know, instead of going to the, let's say a gym, five days a week, I now go three days a week that I do to work out some home. I think there's some mixes of behaviors for people who are interested in
stuff and I guess that assumes the things will revert back to normal. Isn't it, isn't there some law of human psychology that dictates that once we introduce a law or a principal
So like so like mask wearing or, you know, a little bit more difficulty in terms of the ability, to be able to, to attend a class at a gym without jumping, through a bunch of health safety Hoops that it just kind of stays that way. I forget the name of that law. And obviously,
this is, I actually don't know where, you know, where this, you know, sort of where there's a Joel, you know, kind of lands, but I suspect we wind up in some hybrid so I'll use a pulse on bike was so for example, I have one if I would need an extra cardio, you know session without as much you dream
I'll use that just very efficient at home, usually not bringing me into the, you know, top cardio Zone but it's a nice cardio compliment. I'll do stuff like that. We've invested in the company called Tempo, which has straight training based programming for home for. You know, with the basically uses real resistance weights, well, we're looking for opportunities. I think the bigger area for Innovation, that's maybe transcends.
And all of these would be the personalization. So I think most of nutrition advice, maybe even most of Health advice is a fly suffers from a fall but I would just problem that I average population extra wire Z is good for you or bad for you but that most people are not average and that the advice is therefore incorrect for them. I think this is what accounts for these conflicting studies that we see in the
Yeah you know bananas are good for you or the bad for your eggs are good for you or bad for you which they're eccentric cetera. I think the reason why is your some subtle differences, the population and they were tested on and that different people respond very differently.
Oh yeah. I mean there's a huge amount of biochemical individuality and that's, that's kind of like the whole Magic of self quantification it becoming increasingly affordable, but yeah, I mean like you ketogenic diet that helps one person can produce, you know, implementation and increased risk for Alzheimer's and Dementia, and malabsorption of saturated fats, and a whole bunch of issues. And
Somebody else so yeah I mean I I see the same thing in that there's a huge need preferably via a great deal of AI and automation if possible to develop more personalized exercise and health and nutrition nutrition and supplementation prescriptions based on self Quantified data but it just seems like such a young industry which actually surprises me. I thought we'd be farther
ahead. I would have chair. Yeah, I would have guessed, it would be further ahead. I think part of the reason why is no one's developed a great non-invasive way to
Sighs. Yeah, it's so the stuff I've seen that is effective requires blood draws and, you know, the those are tolerable but they're not tolerable everyday necessarily or not tolerable every day to kind of a mainstream product eyes sense. So I think, as we can develop proxies that are accurate enough for personalization that don't require consistent blood draws or require at least micro, you know, blood like drops of blood,
Then I think we can see some you know commercialization at scale of this stuff.
Yeah, I mean you know, there are companies that are kind of sort of doing now you know. Well you brought foreign right Thorn has its home test kits. Now there's another company called base. There's a couple that are doing, you know, urine measurements like vessel, but you know, it nobody has kind of like, an all-encompassing solution now and even those companies that I just named, the only recommendations that you're getting are what supplements to take or what dietary adjustments to make and there's still no exercise or lifestyle.
Or say like, you know, biohacking recommendations like they're still pretty neat when it comes to the universality of the
recommendations. Yeah. And I think that's the problem is normal people normal in quotes require like a what kind of want someone to guide them or something to guide them like you're my goals, tell me what to do, right? Take whatever, time you need to take and throw it through, whatever machine, or whatever, you know, combination that and he need. But then tell me what I should do to achieve my goals.
And simplify it for me like okay eat this, don't eat that change your workout program from X to Y, warrant is less intense, you know whatever, whatever the cases are. But right now you can only do that. If you do. You have a specific concern issue. You can find these tasks or quantification techniques if isolated but being isolated feedback without knowing the context of everything else you do in your life or whatever, your goals are really isn't that helpful to most
people, right?
Exactly. And that's the problem. Like your CR p is elevated. You're at high risk for heart disease. You need to go in for a workup and avoid high intensity exercise. When in fact your CRP is elevated because you lifted weights the day
before exactly. Just all these all these dimensions and like you know the canonical examples are just simple glucose, you know sensitivity and Insulin spikes. There are people can eat pizza with no insulin Spike and there's people can eat chocolate chip cookies and some little baby bananas when no insulin spikes but you need to know.
Know that for you and it's very liberating if you happen to be one of the people can consume your favorite foods that instead of spikes but then you may be surprised that things are otherwise healthy for other people that don't cause him. So spikes, actually do affect your body, like apples or something, to be able to tune your diet, but that's only on one dimension,
right? And and even those recommendations all they're looking at is the microbiome response to a food and how that would affect blood sugar levels or the insulin agenda.
The pancreatic response, but even those tests don't take into account. The fact that in some people like, let's say almonds, would you wouldn't expect to spike your blood sugar at all? If someone's allergic to them, right? You get a sympathetic nervous system response the liver produces, you know, glucose in the very same way as we were talking about earlier when you're warming up for a workout and you get a blood glucose response to a food because you're actually intolerant to it. When most doctors would say oh you have high blood sugar, you eat almonds as one of your staple foods because there are low glycemic index food. There's just there's so
so many variables that I think that the development of like an AI or automated platform to to interpret and then self Quantified data and then prescribe exercise and health and lifestyle and dietary modifications based on that it there's just a long way to go still but it's also exciting you know I think
that's how you know how it should evolve that. I'm looking for an entrepreneur to do all the hard work where I can just give him the capitol.
Yeah.
Word. Well, we've been going for a little while and I want to be respectful of your time, but if people want to kind of get inside your head and learn more about what you do or tune into your thoughts more, where's your most prolific platform would it be Twitter, Instagram
website? Yeah, I use, I use Twitter. Just a boy, I combined of combined business advice, technologyadvice startup advice health, and fitness activities research. I discovered the findings.
Getting readings. I find. So that's probably the easiest way to track me.
Awesome, cool. I'll go. I'm gonna go up to go over there and follow you right now because I just realized, I don't think I actually follow you on Twitter. So to make that happen. Keith, thank you so much for coming on the show for those you listening in again. Like I took notes on everything Keith and I talked about in this discussion, I feel like I could have talked to you from the hour but but at this point, we'll call it a show. But I'm going to put all the show notes at Ben Greenfield fitness.com Keith,
For any of you who want to take a deeper dive and you can also leave your comments, your questions and your own feedback over there at Ben Greenfield fitness.com /. Keith Keith, thanks so much for coming on the show and sharing all this with us man. I love what you're up your wealth of knowledge.
It's been a pleasure. I learned a lot about have to follow up on a lot of your
suggestions, no more bananas in the morning smoothie, I guess, anyway, and I'm sorry about that and and also no more saying that 54 degrees is cold side.
Um, that all right. Well Keith, I'll catch you later and everybody else. Thanks for listening, I'm Ben Greenfield and Keith Rebel way signing out from Ben Greenfield, fitness.com have an amazing week. Well, thanks for listening to Today's show. You can grab all the show notes. The resources pretty much everything that I mentioned over at Ben Greenfield fitness.com along with plenty of other goodies from me, including the highly helpful. Ben
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