What's up, everyone? This is Anthony Pompano. Most of you know me as pomp. You're listening to the pump podcast. Simply the best podcast out there. Let's kick this thing off Polina. Mironova papiano is the founder and author at the profile which is a community that studies the world's most successful people and companies in this conversation. We discussed the world's most successful people including Elon Musk Sara Blakely Martha Stewart Grant Atkins, Anthony Bourdain and many others. I really enjoyed this conversation with police.
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All right guys bang bang. I didn't think that you would ever see me and my beautiful wife. Oh, hey Polina here. We're gonna do an episode all about the profile dossiers issues and writing. She's been analyzing and studying some of the world's most successful and interesting people. So let's get into it. Maybe let's just start with you telling us. What is the profile and how's it been going since you left your job in
March?
Profile is a media company that I started working on in February of 2017. It started off just as a Weekly Newsletter and then it evolved into more properties including the profile dossier which is an individual Deep dive into a single person who is super interesting whether they're in business or Entertainment Sports Etc. So yeah, the profile studies the world's most successful people.
People in companies. All right. And so when you first started doing
the dossier, what's kind of the point of a profile
dossier somebody put it as it's kind of like a better Cliff Notes. What do you mean? So let's say you want to learn more about Elon Musk. You can go down a rabbit hole of the internet that is you can look up his podcasts videos. He's done. You can read articles on him. You can read books on him all of that instead. What I do is kind of I I compile
And put together all of that information for you and I give you little Snippets about like hey, here's Elon Musk on a podcast with Joe Rogan. Here's what it's about. But then the one thing that I do, I think that's really helpful to people as I put together a section called techniques to try and that's super super specific techniques specific to that individual person that I've learned from them and they're very they're not mushy. You know what I mean? They're not like
Like Elon Musk says be original. Okay. Well, how are you more original? So that's kind of all right.
So speaking of Elon Musk. Let's just jump into him. What exactly did you write about for
him? So Elon Musk the way I kind of start get the ideas for these dossiers is I start with an idea first so for me for a mosque, that idea was okay. He's the most original Innovative and radical thinker possibly of our time.
He's a self-made billionaire. Like I want to learn more about how he develops his ideas and independent thought and I wanted to delve into things like that. So he has the following companies that he's founded and or is the CEO of SpaceX Tesla neural link SolarCity starlink the boring Company hyperloop open AI future of Life Institute. So basically he's taking on the thorniest biggest problems of
humanity.
Okay, and so as you're doing this like the process is you read as many books articles listening to a podcast YouTube videos Etc on him. And what were the kind of takeaways that you took after consuming every single piece of content you could find about Elon Musk.
So the fascinating thing about Elon Musk is that when he looks at you when he looks at another human, he doesn't see a human being he seems to compete. He's a computer in other words. He looks at your brain as a computer.
And he distinguishes your Hardware your mental Hardware from your mental software. So your Hardware is kind of like a ball of clay that's handed to us at Birth but it's the software that determines the the what kind of tool that clay gets shaped into so that's why you have to be very very mindful of the type of content you're consuming on a daily basis because if you're consuming junk food or you know, love Island and The Bachelorette and shows like that.
That your Hardware will be shaped in a certain way. Whereas if you're reading things like the profile and the pump letter it you will be dangerous with knowledge. So I thought that was really interesting
and do we feel like that's why he's so smart. It's just because he read so much information and he basically just consumed more than everybody
else. So no, I think that Elon is he's a very interesting person because he basically challenges the status quo in ways that most people don't he has something he calls first principles.
Thinking where he keeps asking why until you can get down to the nitty-gritty of like what is scientific fact behind this? Why can't this be done? And I also think that he's just very curious so is a kid he used to be afraid of the dark for example, so he would ask like, oh my God, you know, why does it get dark? Why do I get scared? And then somebody he says this is a quote, but then I came to understand dark just means the absence of photons and the
Abel wavelength 400 to 700 nanometers then I thought well, it's really silly to be afraid of a lack of photons. So like that's literally how his brain works.
I mean, it's just fascinating to me that he's so scientific it he's also considered one of the best marketers as well. So he's able to bounce that. Did you find anything in there about the
balance? Yeah, so there's a really really great. It's kind of a series of Articles. It's basically a book. It's very in-depth. It's in wait, but why Tim Urban wrote this thing?
About Elon Musk and he characterized the difference between how Elon thinks and the way most people think is being the difference between a chef and a cook. So the reason that Elon is logical original but also creative is because he he's a Trailblazer. He the chef invents the recipe the cook just follow the recipe. Most people are Cooks. He's a chef he's able to do his logic to his questions to his curiosity he's able to
To concoct a recipe that's never existed before and that's also what makes them
creative. Okay. So speaking of a chef Grant Atkins, who is I think at one point the number one Chef in the world or at least was the chef at the number one restaurant in the world? He's has a wild story which learn
about it. Ah, okay this probably my favorite profile dossier that I've ever worked on just because I think Grant Achatz is one of the most creative people in restaurants.
But also maybe in the world so Grant Achatz is fascinating because he'll go to a museum. He'll look at a piece of art on the wall and he'll say why can't I eat off of that and most people don't cross their Industries like that one Chef might be inspired from another Chef Etc, but he's inspired by everything and so he looks at a piece of art. He's like, I want to eat off of that and who says we have to eat off of a tablecloth who says we have to eat out of plates and use forks.
And use this motion to eat like these are things that we just take for granted and real like of course you eat from a plate what else you're going to eat from but he considers his cooking in his dining experience a he calls it it's called The Linea. It's in Chicago because it 1/3 laboratory one-third since aureum and one-third theater. So he looks at the whole idea as a story
and I think the part that so interesting about Grant is if you get to know his story he basically
We got cancer on his tongue and he couldn't taste anything which is a chef. It's kind of difficult, but he not only continued being a chef but it really forced him to focus. I think you said like not on what does the food taste like butt from memory remembering what it tastes like but and then that allowed him to focus on the other aspects of eating not just taste but experience how
it and not just memory. Also we think that the majority of taste comes from the taste buds on our tongue, but what he discovered is that actually they
Majority of your taste comes from your sense of smell and sense of vision. So the way something looks so it one of his favorite things that he does in his restaurant is he makes it tomato that looks like a strawberry. So you're in your brain. You're like, I'm about to eat a strawberry about to eat a strawberry and he like, oh my God, I think this tastes like a tomato, but it's it's tricking you. You know what? I mean? It's magic.
All right, Sara Blakely who is one of the best entrepreneurs in the world.
What did you learn about her?
So Sara Blakely story super interesting because she's one of those people that she was so naive when she started her entrepreneurial Journey that she always saw opportunity in Failure. When most people would see failure as just plain failure. So growing up she want to be a trial attorney, but then she bombed the LSAT after college. She auditioned to be goofy at Disney world, but she was too short. So she ended up at 27 years old moving back to Atlanta living with her mom cell.
A fax machines and so that was kind of a dead end job and she was like she kept telling herself like you're better than this like you're meant to do more than this. It's all about mindset for her and one night. She decided to wear her new white pants to a party but her underwear left unflattering panty line. So if you're a woman, you know exactly what I mean. And so when she when she saw how good her but look she was like this is an opportunity so she cut the feet off of her pantyhose created.
thanks became the youngest self-made billionaire
and so when you read through kind of all of her story and her content everything what do you take away in terms of like those tips and techniques
the thing that's interesting about Sara Blakely is that when she was growing up her dad would make the whole family as they sat around the table and had dinner to go through and tell him all the kids had to tell their dad one thing they failed at that day and she said that he'd be genuinely disappointed if it
it wasn't like a good meaty failure and I think that that shaped her brain again the software and the hardware to think oh something's a failure that means like I'm trying I'm taking a risk so that's that's why she started Spanx with no business experience no business background no investors she didn't even tell my idea to her family and friends on until she launched so I think just being naive can be good and she also says that being an
Cider to the fashion industry. She didn't know anything about fashion, but she said that allowed her to see things with fresh eyes where everybody's like, this is how it's always been she was like, but why does it have to be this way
another person you covered that's an original thinker and talks a lot about kind of the way they think is Malcolm Gladwell. What did you learn about him?
So Malcolm gladwell's possibly one of the best storytellers. I've come across, you know him for books like outliers and the Tipping Point, right? That's one of them.
He talking to strangers recently came out. He basically says what I'm really interested in is joy and intellectual play the unexpected turns that ideas can make is to my mind one of the greatest pleasures of being alive. So he talks a lot about idea generation when you don't have an idea he recommends like go on a walk take like make make it a point to notice things in your neighborhood. You've never noticed go to the library. He says that when you use Google it kind of makes it.
It kind of makes it like Google recommends things that it thinks you will like or that are the most relevant. So the most common ideas come up first when you go to the library you search books things that are around but like you can get fresh and original ideas. One of the my favorite things that I learned from Malcolm Gladwell is you know me, you know how much I care about like things being perfect and things being done. Well and right and Okay and like me
And I just really care and what you always tell me is forget. Perfect. Just get it done get it out the door and then you can evolve that idea. Right? So he says that people are actually often drawn the two things that are done imperfectly. So it's our movies books people talk more about the flawed things that get stuck in their heads. Then the very very perfect things, right? So he says you want an aftertaste and that comes from not everything being perfectly Blended together.
Question is what is interesting? And that's what has to drive and in creative act. I
love that and he's written how many amazing books so many of the way that he takes his ideas and basely articulates them back for people to read somebody who I knew nothing about until you covered them was Tara Westover. Let's maybe start with just the story first and then we learned
Tara is Shiro educated, which is one of my favorite memoirs.
She was born to Mormon parents and the mountains of Idaho Mormon survivalist parents. So that means that they didn't believe in anything government-funded. So she didn't get to go to a hospital when she almost like cut her hand off and she didn't get to go to school. So so her family life was incredibly turbulent. She was she decided to self-educate and take the SATs because she had an older brother who had gone to college so she was inspired by him.
I was 17 years old when she first set foot in a classroom and that was at Brigham Young University. I mean, it's incredible and there that's where she studied history and learn for the first time about world events like the Holocaust and the Civil Rights Movement. There's a point in the book where she raised her hand. She's like Holocaust like, well, what do you mean by that and all her classmates are like, oh my God. She doesn't believe the Holocaust happened. She's like, I genuinely don't know what that is, and it's kind of sad it is.
Yeah, but like what? What do you think about when you heard her story?
I think it's just you know, there's people like that all around the world that we just don't consider living in the United States or North America with internet access and great education and things like that. Yeah, but at the same time if you kind of think back to I Knew people who had never traveled outside of about the state they grew up in or the city they grew up in and so this is like that on steroids, but I think it's more common than we probably realize and for most people who are listening.
Podcast for example, you know, you are likely to be seeking out new ideas or kind of new pieces of content trying to really just build an understanding it and educate yourself. And so it's no different. It's just done in a different format, you know kind of what she went through in the
story. So and one thing that's really interesting that I learned from her story and I always remind myself of this is to consider your Echo Chambers, right? So because of her upbringing she held racist homophobic
and sexist views because of her views were her dad's views like she didn't know anything else. The only way she says she was able to change her mind was that people let her Express her beliefs out loud, which allowed her to hear the way it sounded when they would challenge why she thought that she would get to explain Etc. So she says they weren't really my words. They came from somewhere else. But here's here's what she says about education that I
We love she says education. I really believe is a privilege. We always need to be attacking the bigotry and the Prejudice but I don't think we should be attacking people for not having an education that there's no way they could have possibly had I think that's so important.
One of the people who has had the most education via experiences and not a traditional classroom is Anthony
Bourdain. Yep. He
anyone who's seen
His story who's watched his work I think is a general fan because of the way that he carried his life out. The sad part of the story is obviously he passed away. And so you went down this deep rabbit hole and I remember when you told me you're going to do it. I was like, wow, you're going to learn so much basically tell me everything and then you wrote this piece and it's a grand slam. So it what were the tips and tricks that you took out of Anthony Bourdain and kind of the way he
Lived his life at a hundred miles an hour all the time.
He did and even though he lived his life at a hundred miles an hour. He always knew and appreciated the position that he was in he knew that he got lucky. He got chosen to be in this position or as you know, lots of other people wouldn't so he he really did live life to the fullest of fuel but he traveling to more than a hundred different countries and one of the things that he says is you should go wrong.
Rogue when you travel, so he once said that traveling to Paris to see the Eiffel Tower is lethal to the soul because you're actually it's the places that are off the beaten path and the ones that put you out of your comfort zone that you know are the ones that teach you something right? So he says we tend to be over concerned with safety and with cleanliness in ways that stand between us so he had a rule whenever he went to a different country, whatever they gave him. He would eat he he didn't it doesn't matter what there was.
One, can I tell you yeah, okay. If so, they ripped a snake through the middle grabbed it still beating heart put it in a thing and then you just chased not Chase it shoot it like a shot. He did it. It's wild but he always did that and he says that it's the human awkward moments when you don't speak the language is somebody else when there's a little miscommunication like Malcolm said it's the it's the imperfection.
In the things that leave and after Chase those are the memories that you probably
have. Yeah. Basically he's like look, I'm not going to travel around the world and just go see all the places everyone else sees. I want to go actually experience them as if I was a local living here and I think anyone who's travelled before knows that is the best way to travel and then talk a little bit about his thoughts around like sharing memories of people over a
meal. Yeah. So one of the biggest lessons I learned from him is that he says no matter where you go the one tip.
Mr. Traveler is a tourist you should have is that you shouldn't be a snob a lot of people are they go somewhere? Like I don't do that. Oh, I don't like that. This isn't environment isn't clean enough for me. He says the dish you're eating is nowhere nearly as important as where you are sitting and with whom you're eating it
with it's a great piece of advice somebody who did a fantastic job in their life - one big situation where maybe they could use some better advice is
Martha Stewart now you haven't published this one yet, but we're going to talk about it.
Give you a little sneak peek.
What did you learn about Martha
Stewart so long before there were social media influencers. There was Martha frickin Stewart and she was more powerful like imagine Martha's. Well, I guess you can because there is social media today, but when she started if there was social media, she would be everywhere. So in the year 2000 she had two magazines 27 books a weekday radio show a syndicated ass.
Martha newspaper column a TV show on CBS a website a merchandising retail partnership and a catalog like in and she actually is America's first self-made female billionaire. That's crazy. Yeah, but then she became something nobody ever thought she would be criminal a convicted felon for Insider training a trading a lot of people say that you know, they kind of wanted to make an example out of her, but she actually voluntarily serve that sentence before she
Was anyway it doesn't matter.
So what did you learn?
I think that I think that Martha Stewart super interesting because there's a lot of people who can reach the top right like they can build this Empire. It takes a lot to stay on top and she's been able to do it and redo it with generation after generation and she went from she took something called women's work, which is cleaning gardening cooking and turn it into a billion-dollar Empire in the way. She did that is she
Kept innovating and she kept trying new things even when it could have been dangerous for her brand. She did a partnership with Snoop Dogg like and their best friends and that went really well for her. She got into CBD at a time when it was still like Oh and it turned out really well for her her magazine Martha Stewart magazine was one of the first to use a digital layout to lay out the pages and to go digital on the internet where as other magazines were like over just gonna stick with print. She is not afraid to die.
Do that and one more thing that I learned that I think is actually very valuable learn how to not give a damn. She does not care if you like her her brand is about helping educate you right? So there's a column that explains how Stewart success is completely isolated from the need for likability and unlike some of her like contemporaries at the time like Oprah and things like that. She was just like, you know, I don't care if you like me and I think that that's
Why her going to prison actually didn't damage her brand?
Yeah, it's absolutely nuts. I think about just how long she's been around how relevant how many times she's reinvented herself and been Innovative speaking of
she had a thirst trap on Instagram coming out of a pool. I
don't know Brandon Stanton is all over Instagram Facebook and everywhere else. He's the guy behind humans of New York. He's fantastic. What?
You learn when you did a deep dive on him and you also
interviewed. Yeah, man, Brandon Stanton. This is one of those people that I've been admiring his work for so long. So to get to actually speak to him was really cool for me, but he cool guy. He's a cool guy. He has spent the last so basically here's this quick bio in 2010. He was he had graduated from the University of Georgia like me and he was a bond Trader. He was working as a bond Trader in Chicago and then the financial
Crisis happened he got fired and he was like, he took a walk along walk and he was like, what do I actually like to do and he realized like I just really like taking pictures of people. I guess what I like to do, so he picked up his camera went out and started photographing people move to New York what I learned in and so by the way, he started doing that just because he liked it not because he thought there would be a business. So the biggest thing I've learned from Brandon is like when you go to Business School,
A lot of people say okay. You're going to start a company. What's your business plan? And I think a lot of times the best businesses actually don't have a clear path to profitability or business plan or blueprint of any sort. I when I started the profile on 2017, I never thought it would become a business and Brandon when he started photographing strangers on the street. He never thought he would make money off of it and that would be his living so sometimes I think just the passion overwhelms that and it just
Naturally pushes you to you're going to make money somehow. Yeah,
and I think also is just like you know that if you can have people pay attention, right you'll always be able to monetize that in some way whether it's ads whether it's you know, kind of audience supported whether it's selling physical products, if you're an entrepreneur and you've got attention, then you can always monetize in some some way. I want to talk about Courtney dull Walter. Yep, I think is how you pronounce your name absolute Legend keys.
A Savage. All right. Tell her
Story So Courtney was a tough one to do actually because she went on Joe Rogan's podcast. She's done a few but she's just one of those people that's very matter of fact, like for example, if so, she's a she's a really long distance Runner. She won the Moab 240, which is a 240 point three mile foot race through some of Utah's most challenging terrain. It took her 58 hours and she beat the second-place finisher.
More than 10 hours. So she's gone through hallucination blindness sleep deprivation vomiting. I think if those things had ever happened to me, my interviews would be so full of color and exaggeration and craziness and doesn't think she doesn't need to exaggerate because she's been through this craziness. So when Like You on The Joe Rogan podcast, actually, there's a point. He's like, he's like Courtney like you're a Savage like tell me how did you and she was like, no. I just run I'm fine like
Very matter of fact the thing that I like about her is that she's mastered. She believes that her strength is being able to master the art of suffering. So she's managed to stay calm through bouts of severe nausea a bleeding head injury and temporary blindness and here's how so she calls. She this is something that she calls it the pain cave. So she's an endurance Runner. So she talks about pain is
Actual place and I think that's really interesting because it's helpful to personify pain because it kind of serves as a reminder that you can enter it and you can leave it but like you're in control, you're not just like I'm in pain I can't go on and that's it. And she says she literally says it's not a place. I'm scared to enter. It's a place. I'm excited to find the entrance to so she's actively looking for that. I kind of like that why
I don't know. I just feel like if he's got control of it and
Do you know where you're going? There's this element of like you're addicted to the pain so you can
do you think that because you know that there's going to be pain you're kind of like eager to like your brain isn't a shocked when it happens, of
course, but it's also I think that part of what the training does is they train for the pain, right? Yeah. Well speaking of meditative at some weird place like way right? Yep. What is not meditative is arguing with your significant and
I first want to talk about mr. John gottman basically tries to prevent that on a daily basis. So explain John gottman and what I thought was Voodoo science that ends up being pretty pretty
effective. So the reason I like John gottman is because he's been called the Einstein of love. But every time you talk about love and marriage and relationships things tend to be pretty mushy, right like people are just like, oh you gotta be, you know, do the best you can expect
Except gottman's very scientific and mathematical in his approach. So he he's developed models scales and formulas to better predict marital stability and divorce and couples his research focuses on the process of conflict within a marriage the way couples fight and reconcile unless on the content of the actual argument and I thought that was so interesting. He he and his wife also a researcher they teamed up in did this like love lab which was
An apartment and they put different couples in this apartment over a period of time and they filmed them their interactions and they divided them into two groups the Masters and the disasters so they were able within like 94% accuracy predict. Whether a couple would say married or get divorced isn't that insane? What were the signal so okay the most important signal there's something he calls the force The Four Horsemen.
Of the Apocalypse. So these are certain negative communication styles that are absolutely lethal their criticism defensiveness stonewalling and contempt which is the most dangerous one. Look them up there. They're amazing. The other thing that he believes it's not about the grand gestures of romance. That really make a relationship solid. It's the tiny little mundane moment. So he always says that happier couples had a ratio of five positive interactions.
To every one negative interaction so literally a head nod a smile like a pat like something small counts towards that and that can enhance positivity. There's one that I love and I really believe this is true. It's called answering the bid. So when your partner throughout the day, they make requests for connection, and that's what he calls a bid. So say that your partner is a
Bird enthusiasts which I am and they and they point out a pretty bird as your on your walk. If the other person turns their head to look at the bird that can signify whether your relationship is going to work or not because over a long period of time decades and decades just you know, giving that other person that little bit of a tension builds connection over
time, like what are the odds that you're on?
Walk smoothly look at that bird in the person's I'm not going to
look.
What are the no no, it's a lot more about like the ignoring in the neglect. Like if I'm like right now. Hey, Anthony, look at the school like meme if you ignore me, I like I feel a little bit slided right like in overtime that just builds resentment in it kind of tears apart
the relation that makes sense. All right, we've got over 10 of these man. I talked a lot. You've done a ton of them. What would you say is your favorite part about doing the profile
dossier? I think it for me.
It's I've always been a big like Observer of people. I don't like being the center of attention. I like observing other people and I think that this really by listening to so many of their conversations and reading about them and and seeing them do interviews it lets you kind of be in their brain for a little bit and see how they think you know, I agree what have you learned because you've read every single one of them.
I think that everyone's more similar than they are different in the world's most successful people.
Success can be measured by happiness, you know crazy Feats like running 240 miles being the richest people, you know, whatever. It's there's no secret sauce like you just got to do the work and once you realize like literally nobody has a Magic Bullet. Nobody has a secret and everyone just does the work that ends up being successful then you just realizing. Okay. What work do I have to do? Let's go do it and it kind of focuses you on work rather than
the dream of being
successful out of the ones that you've read which like lesson or thing has stayed with
you
probably not just one I just like Grant Acton's at syndicates markets because like he was a chef that lost taste in his tongue and he was like nah I'm still going to be the best in the world
and it made him better yeah it is oh sorry one more thing about Grant Achatz that I've found a thread across all every single dossier that I've ever done the one thread is that you can always reinvent yourself and sometimes you shouldn't
Wait, so Grant Achatz, he blows up his entire menu every three months and start and makes the everyone at the at the restaurant start over and come up with new ideas. And they're like Grant. This is the best menu we've ever had and he's like, yeah, but that's that's what brings complacency and makes you just average like we have to keep Reinventing and keep trying new things.
Yeah, and I think the other piece of this too that that's really interesting is when you think about the best way to learn
Learn to me it's studying people who are successful in why is that because it's just actionable things like you don't need to know, you know, I mean, yes, you know two plus two but like there's a calculator right and learning two plus two is nestled going to make you successful but understanding the philosophy the mindset and then incorporating those things into your own, you know approach to solving a problem. It's usually the things that are outside the box so the direct application ends
You know something about the world that other people don't know it's the philosophy and kind of the persistence and that type of stuff that ends up being the differentiator
My Pan in for me. It's actually that we're able to relate more to people and their stories and identify with them. Really. Oh, I've been through something similar instead of like these abstract Concepts where like I never liked history because history was like, well World War one, but if you gave me a person in World War 1 and their life journey and how
it affected them. I would remember it would stick with me for much longer than just World War One guns. Where
can we send people find you on the internet and find out about the profile
read the profile.com
read the profile.com? Yes, your Twitter
account. I do wait for the profile for myself for yourself. I do it's at Paulina underscore. Mironova.
Do you want to promote anything else?
Oh, I'm going to give an update on my tomato plant and how that's doing for all the
you who are curious up and getting a lot of those messages. Okay,
clean underscore baranova on Twitter and then read the profile.com. Yes. Awesome. Thank you for doing
this. Thank you so much.
