I couldn't have possibly imagined having a career that was more.
What would you say? It offered me. Everything I could have possibly wanted. Also, a lot of trouble, but, but, but nonetheless. And so, I was exceptionally fortunate in that regard, but nonetheless, if I had to
Peck like I pick my family. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah because of the quality of the experience, you know that I'm not just saying that out of a sense of obligation or Duty it's like no it fundamentally that was that was deeper and I tried to teach the deepest things I could conceptualize and succeeded in that at least as to the degree that I could conceptualize them. But still, you know, so I know
When push comes to shove, especially those years, I spent with Tammy and Boston when our kids were little. So I man, there is something to that. Don't miss it. Stupid, guys. Don't miss that.
Yo, what's good, everybody? This is our fees and welcome back.
Welcome back. I can't even say to another episode because this is not just another episode of this is not just another conversation. This, in my opinion. I've talked to a lot of amazing people, but this is the most anticipated episode in conversation of my entire life. And before I introduce, guess I got to tell you guys, a brief story growing up. My favorite holiday was Christmas? I
Christmas morning, anybody. I could not sleep the Night Before Christmas because I was so excited about what could come and every single year. I would write the one and only Santa Claus a letter giving him a list of all the things that I desire and I wanted for Christmas. Every the next year. I'm in next day. I wake up in the morning. I go downstairs, and I I look under the tree and not say, my parents weren't good parents, but the letterhead I got wrote, Santa Claus.
Was always a company with another letter from Santa Claus. Telling me that this year. Some of the things that I wanted. I wasn't going to be able to get it. Maybe I will be able to get it next year. Nevertheless, regardless of the opposition, regardless of what I didn't get, I kept on writing letters year and year and I kept on getting letters back from Santa Claus saying what I wanted more than anything in the world, I would unfortunately not be getting it that year, but what that experience taught me was that when you want.
Thing in life, you've got to be persistent when you want something like you have to write it down and it was about maybe five years ago, and I was sitting down, and I turned on YouTube and then all of a sudden, I see this thumbnail of this distinguished gentleman on The Joe Rogan podcast, and I said this it seemed like an interesting conversation. I clicked on that thumbnail and a watch the video and it absolutely changed my life, though. The wisdom, the knowledge that
The information that this man was sharing the things that he was talking about the way construct, his ideas. It was so absolutely powerful to me and for the pet for next couple years every time this man put out a video I would watch and consume every piece of content and I went ahead and I wrote down on a piece of paper. I said, you know, what if anything can happen will be an absolute honour is for me to be able to sit down and have a conversation with this man. So I made
My one of my life goals. I said, without a shadow of a doubt. I would sit down and have a conversation with this man. And I would always write it down and I always pray to God. God give me this opportunity. I'm glad to say over four years later, you know, my prayers were answered and I got the opportunity right now to sit down with one of my favorite human beings of all time. This individual is all might Mount Rushmore of people, right, besides, my father and
I see Gary v as well. And I am beyond ecstatic to introduce the audience to this man. And hopefully the words that he shares today has will bless you as much as it has blessed me. So, without further Ado, please guys, welcome to the show. The One and Only, dr. Jordan be Peterson. Jordan. Dr. Jordan Pederson. Welcome to the show.
Hi her face. I don't think I've had a nicer introduction to not So Much appreciated. I'm looking
very much a problem.
To as a pledge. I told myself. I'm not going to cry but you know, the guy probably watching this means a lot to me and I'm super grateful. So dr. Peterson for those who don't know, you can you give a bit of an elevator pitch synopsis about who you are? What you do and all that good
stuff.
Well, I'm a psychologist. I had a long research career about 20 years, publishing scientific papers. I'm a clinical psychologist. I practiced for about 20 years as well. I haven't been practicing specifically for the last five years. I'm an author, I wrote a book called maps of meaning, which was published in 1999 and it was an investigation into the relationship between belief and emotional regulation had religious thinking. I was trying
Account for the human tendency, to, while to be so allied with what we believe and why that's so important to us. And also, for the proclivity for us to do atrocious things. And that was a very serious, and difficult book. And then in, I've published two books for more popular audiences. Much later than that. I think twelve rules for life antidote to chaos. Came out in 2016 and then the new book beyond order came out last year. So, I'm an author and a
A speaker, I suppose. And I have a YouTube podcast and it seems to be quite successful and people are positively inclined towards it. And I'm very, very fortunate because I can now talk to anybody. I want this podcast pretty much. And so, that's unbelievably exciting. And so I, this is the end of my little speech I suppose. I
I was very much interested obsessed by the idea of ideological possession and also by human malevolence and the sorts of things that happened in Nazi Germany and in the Soviet Union and well, in many places, many, many places and what I concluded from all that I suppose, is that the best way to protect us from such things, as we move forward, is to help build better individuals, and that was Allied with my extreme interest in Clinical Psychology.
Which is an individual on individual Pursuit, and so, I tried to bring that in my University.
Experience as a lectured speaker to as wide an audience as possible. And and here we are.
That's awesome though. I definitely I love I love them. 12 rules for life and Beyond ordered. This is exceptional reason and I think it's just so powerful that the messages that you give can impact so many people so, dr. Peterson. What, what I want to do is I want to take a trip into the DeLorean and I want to go back in time because we I know dr. Peterson D. The amazing man that
And before me today, but I want to know who Jordan was at 16 years old. So so if you were go back in time to know Fairview and Alberta who was Jordan Peterson at 16 years old. What was that guy?
Like? Well, I didn't care much for school. I wouldn't say although younger than that. I was younger than that. When I took my first University course, I was just remembering that this year. There was a professor named Dennis wheeler, who taught?
Got it. This local College. It was about 90 miles away and he was interested in distance education. He came up north to our little town and taught a course on political science, which I took when I was 14 and I really like that. So there was some aspects of academic Pursuit that I loved and I read a lot. I pretty much read a book a day from the time. I was about 10 till. Well till I started reading really serious books and couldn't read one of those in the day.
So for years, you know, and I had a it was a working-class place and all my friends pretty much we're working class kids. Most of them dropped out of school in Grade 9 or grade 10 and then went off to work on the oil rigs that where they could make a fortune. And especially for someone that young I worked from the time. I was 14 on word. I worked in restaurants and I like that a lot. I worked first as a dishwasher which was an impossible job for me to begin with.
With till the German Chef took, pity on me and showed me how to do it after. I struggled away for about 3 weeks like swamp by dishes. But I like that because I was treated like an adult and I really appreciated that and I work. I had a bit of a political interest, well more than a bit. At that point. I worked for a local, our local member of the legislative assembly at the provincial level. So that's the state level for you. American types. And I was interested in socialist ideas at that point and
That lasted, that, that political interest of that precise sort lasted till I was about 17, I would say when I realized that, I just didn't know anything and that a political career at that point, which was something that was open to me in a strange way that would have, it was radically premature. So, that was me at 16. I would say that I was in grade 12. Then I went to, I went to college when I was 17 left home, when I was 17.
Oh, wow. So so you went to college when you're 17 years old? So 16 years old you were it's very annoying because I couldn't get in the bar. Ha, ha ha ha ha. It's very
annoying. So my friends would go to the bar and sometimes even classes were held there and I couldn't go. And I looked like, I was like 13, so there was no way I was sneaking in. So,
and, and what do you do undergraduate? Dr.
Peterson? I did two years at this local College Grand, Prix Regional college, and it was
In a beautiful building designed by native Canadian architect named, Douglas Cardinal. It was his first major commission. It was an outstanding building, absolutely beautiful. Curved brick on the outside. No, no square corners, beautiful white, rounded interior and I had great professors. There I had. So interesting is, I was just reading about that this week. I had six professors there that were outstanding one in biology, political science.
English, literature history art. Who else was there? I didn't name all six but that's close and they were all men as it turned out and they were really deeply committed to teaching the English professor, professor. Robin Burke. He I think he gave me like a 3 out of 9 on my first essay, which just shocked the hell out of me. Yeah. It was quite the shock because I thought I could write, I got good grades in high school.
Despite not doing any work, and I'd never really run into someone who could actually write and he could write and I couldn't at all. And so he taught me he was a tough guy and you know a strict guy but my friends and I loved him and I was so fortunate because I got together with a good group of friends. Some couple of them came with me from Fairview and we all sat together and in these classes and so I had a really good social life. There are little Cadre.
Over the Student Union. The second year. I was at this little college and we ran a huge Surplus which was the first time that ever happened. I we couldn't figure out how you could possibly run a deficit at a student government when you could hold dances and sell beer to undergraduates. It's like, how can you not make a profit doing that? Anyways, it was a blast and I got a really good education there for two years and then I went to the University of Alberta for a year and finished. My bachelor's degree and that was political.
Ants with a minor in English and you could get a three-year degree at that point and then I worked for. No, I yeah, I worked on road crews for six months and then went to Europe for four months and then I went to University again for a year because I decided that I was going to study psychology. So I took nothing but psychology courses for a whole year and
Got a second. Be a, you know, not exactly but that's how it worked. And then I work for another year and then I went to graduate school. So that was that was okay. Hold that.
So would you say majority of your friends? We're working in the oil rigs or would you say majority of your friends went on to college
with you? Oh, no, no, no hardly anyone from my graduating class went on to college. There was me and a handful of other people. Virtually everyone stayed in this town.
And most, you know, I had different friends, somewhat different friends in high school than I did in junior high, because junior high was grade 7 to 9, because so, many of my previous friends had dropped out of school. And so, and then a new crowd came in. These were kids that were, they lived in the Neva, no more remote place called Bear Canyon, which was literally on the edge of the Prairie Frontier like, and, and there was no high school there. So they came to
As residents, they had to live with families and they were, they stayed in school, those three characters. I'm still in touch, with all three of them. They were great friends of mine. And one of them came to college with me and was a roommate for a while. And but, but that was it. Most people did her go.
No. Yeah. So do you feel as though you were a
Individual who was moving to the beat of your own drum it and had more of a leader disposition because it would appear that if you're in an environment where all your other peers are not interested in going to school, there could be easy proclivity for individual to not decide to go to school as well until, you know, Chase the money during the oil rig. So, what was it inside of you that made? You be able to know, still desire to path of higher education, though? Everybody else is moving in a different
direction. Well,
Parents were both University educated. And so my dad was a teacher. He's still alive. And my mom was a nurse. They had both left the small town. They were from in Saskatchewan, was an even smaller town and and gone to University and it was just expected in our house. I never questioned it. I knew I knew from the time. I was 11 10 that I was going to leave Fairview and and and pursue my education. I didn't know how far and at that point. I didn't.
Understand the tears of higher education. Bachelor Masters PhD, but I knew and you know, it was interesting because virtually everyone, I knew that did leave. That little town knew that they were going to leave when they were that young. And so it's too hard to tell why these things happen. I wouldn't say that it was precisely. I wouldn't say that it was because I was leader exactly because my friends weren't followers. None of them include
Getting the kids who went off to work in the oil rigs. Those kids were tough, man. And part of the reason they quit school is because they got sick and tired of putting up their hands to ask to go to the bathroom when they were, you know, pretty much man. And they were man enough to go work on the rigs. So, so know, I wasn't leading them. I was small, and because I'd skipped a grade. So, I was younger than everyone else in my class. And I was rather small for my age anyways, and so, I was surrounded by guys, generally who had lot more physical prowess than me.
No, I didn't really participate in team sports until I went to graduate school partly. Because of that reason, although I went skiing with my, my father and cross-country skiing and trapping in that and hunting and that sort of thing. So, but I was much more academically inclined than most of my friends. And I wasn't exactly from the same kind of working-class background that they were from. So most of my friends, their parents had
Finished high school or not. I had one friend who whose parents were University educated and he did go to college, but he never, he never continued. He had, he had some pretty severe mental health problems, unfortunately.
So, um, how many siblings do you
have?
To, I had a younger sister. She's a year and a half younger than me. Bonnie, and I have a brother who's four and a half years younger than me, Joel and they both went off to college and okay, Pursuit the right. So, how would you
go ahead? How would you describe your father?
Hmm. He wasn't someone you trifled with. I can tell you that, I can give you a story about that. So he is a teacher for a lot of his life and he taught grade 6. He wasn't my
Homeroom teacher in grade 6 because he because there was another great six teacher and I was his son, so they put me in the other great six teachers homeroom, but he taught math and taught arithmetic / math. And I remember the first time my class had him as a teacher and we were 12 and kind of Rowdy, you know, like 12 year olds are by 13. We were way too much of a handful for most of our teachers, you know, we drove them really crazy. It was horrible.
So they were, we're already pretty Rowdy. I would say. And I swear that for 10 minutes before he walked into the room. No one said a thing and it wasn't because he was mean he wasn't mean but you didn't mess with him. And that was what it was like at home. You know, like Dad was an intimidating figure and and now having said that, I should also say that he was who he was and he is unbelievably good, with little kids who has a real soft spot for little kids little harder on.
Nature's probably a, you know, they're not as trustworthy teenagers and, and but he was, and he paid a tremendous amount of attention to be when I was young taught me to read and memories that are like, I hold dear and that really shaped me all that attention. I got from him when I was well, before I went to school was unbelievably beneficial to me. I mean, one thing my dad did for me and my mom played a role in this but it's harder to say exactly what it was my relationship with my
Mother was much easier. She's a, she's a, she's an easy person to get along with an easy person to love. She also has a great sense of humor. So I could always make her laugh and that was wonderful and but my dad had extremely high standards and it was difficult to please it. So, I had this strange sense from him that I could do that. He was confident that I could do anything, but that, nothing I did was ever quite good enough and so there's a roughness to that, you know, but there's there's also an advantage and it's a tough one because when you
Of your kids. Hey, there's two things you do for them one's more maternal. I would say in one's more paternal. Although either parent could play the role of the maternal is love, you know, it's like hi. Love you. Just the way you are. I Think You're great and that's what you have for babies. And and you know, and that's the kind of love that makes you always welcome at home in some sense. No matter what you've done but the paternal love is sort of like I love you, but there could be more to you. And so
It's in its best form, its encouragement. And to know, someone has your back and I've always known that, my parents had my back and it's a big deal and, you know, part of what I see, that affects me so profoundly emotionally, when I go lecture, for example, is I see so many young people who don't have that, you know, who've never really heard a word of encouragement and God, that's such a lock. Its and that's so, I was so fortunate in that, a lot of my friends, the majority of them.
Certainly didn't have that from their father in particular. So.
Again, they still have my back, my parents, you know, so that's often when I was when I went on my book tour. So I went and talked to her and 2019. No, 18 went to about 150 cities. So is extensive all over the world often before the tour. I would phone them and so which kind of strange in some ways. I was damn near 60, you know, in their in their age. It was a ritual that was for was partly a ritual and I needed that ritual before I went and talked to
The crowds were usually, you know, several thousand people are some up to 10,000 people. It was just a way of touching something familiar. I suppose, before I wandered out into the unknown. So
that makes that no, thank you for sharing that know and the reason why I ask that is because I had a feeling that was so, you know, my father is next to you on the Mount Rushmore and my father is somebody who's extremely powerful individuals. Well, extremely fantastic with
Aaron, I actually was educated for a couple years as well and I did preschool. And although you know, the women I was I was at his private school and you know, the first day of school you had is black guy, you know, like is football player black guy like the teacher to classroom and it all the women were like, oh what's going on here, but they all then fell in. Love me. They were like, you're so good with children. I tell them. Well, it's because my dad my dad was just he had a supernatural gifting with just with just young children. And so I've always found that
Impact that my dad showed me because I know a lot of men you've experienced it before they've never heard their father. Tell them I love you or the father, put their arm around them or get her
play.
Play with them, you know, I had a friend who didn't have a father and he was over at our house a lot until I was about 12 or 13 and we sort of separated paths after that. But my dad sort of took him on as a second son for number of years and I used to wrestle with this friend of mine and he was so awkward. You couldn't wrestle with him without him sticking his thumb in your eye, or some
damn thing on on later recollection. I
realized because I
Already rough-and-tumble play When I was a research psychologist at Mcgill and at and at the University of Toronto and he didn't have that opportunity to engage in that play. And one of the things that a father does, I think technically speaking is, is help set up a secure environment, right? A safe environment within which play can take place. Because when children play, they're experimenting with who they could be in a really deep sense. It's not optional this and rough-and-tumble play is not
It'll either when my kids were little, both of them. I set up this couch, my wife and I set up this sectional couch and so it was three pieces and then three pieces. So it was like two couches facing each other and it was so it was like was walled in. It was a little wrestling ring and I used to bounce them around and throw them in the air and I can wrestle with them right to the edge of their tolerance continually. And it's it's that's how kids figure out what hurts and what doesn't hurt like directly. And they, they figure out.
what's fun and what isn't Fun physically, so they're sort of learning to dance, which is probably what's being assessed when women assess men for dance, for example, and so while all that interaction, I had with my dad and my mom to like I shouldn't leave her out of this it because
She's a great person and she's I don't really ever remember having a fight with my mom. You know, we used to drive her crazy enough so that she would cry, you know, from time to time and that was quite rare. But, but she was not a she she is not a harsh person. She's got a spine. She's got a backbone. She's no pushover. But but but what R is really, I think markedly different in my house. From most of my friends house was how much time
My father spent with me and the fact that fundamentally, even when we had disagreements, when I was a teenager. And certainly, a lot of those were due to me, fundamentally, he was still he was on my he was on the better part of me on the side of the better part of me, you know, and I think that's a real kind of love, right? It's like I love the better part of you. And so when I see you deviate from that, it really hurts me. I don't like that and that's judgmental to. And in this Society, you know, you're not supposed to be judgmental which is, of course.
Patently ridiculous, but because you want to be judged by someone fair and wise but God someone's got to help you separate the wheat from the chaff. And so and that there's a harshness in that. But but life's harsh man. So, yeah.
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Native entrepreneur design business skills man. Dr. Peterson is such a wealth of information, a wealth of knowledge. And all the resources that he provides for us is really going to transform our lives, but skillshare is another vast library for information, which gives you guys practical courses for free, that you can Implement into your life today. You don't have to wait till tomorrow to make a change after this episode. You can go to skillshare.com / roommate. Sign up, you get one month.
More free mean that you don't have to pay any money and you have this vast library of skills to build yourself up to the man that you've always wanted to be. So guys, please don't just be a hearer of Truth. Also be a doer of Truth and apply information to your life, to go to skillshare .com/srobiyt. It's go ahead and sign up. Trust me. You'll be thanking me later and let's get back to this week's episode. No, that's true. I was talking to a doctor, Warren Farrell d a couple weeks ago. We were having
Having a conversation that, you know, that you guys had as well about the importance of rough-and-tumble play, in the development of young, young children, especially young boys, and, and you're right. And I think that's the part of the, of the story that I wanted to hear. Because I think that it's so powerful for fathers to be in the home to be able to help develop children. I think there's a lot of studies that talk about that in a lot of communities. One of the biggest things that is a game changer, is not just so much. How many fathers in the home, but how many fathers
In the communities. Yeah, right. That's right. That's, that's a big predictor of well of flourishing in those communities, right? Yes. There's good evidence. Exactly. Yeah. Well, we're thanks kind of rough a because you see a single mother and I've had plenty of single mothers as clients and they're struggling the way mightily. And in some ways heroically often and you don't want to say, well, you know, you just not doing that great a job because often that's not true. But then you have to also balance against that the fact that, yeah.
Well, still, this is a two-person job and it's pretty hard to be mother. And father can really saw that with my wife. Hey, that was kind of interesting to watch that as the kids grew up because my wife is actually Tougher Than Me. Temper. Mentally. She's less agreeable. Yeah. Yeah, so got it. Well, I'm not, I'm pretty high in compassion and agreeableness and she's quite a bit lower quite low for a woman. And so she's kind of she's got that masculine Edge to her in that way makes her caustically funny.
And provocative, it's very interesting thing to see. She was really a good mother. You know. When my when I was when we had our first child Michaela. We lived in this little apartment in Montreal and I built this loft bed out of two-by-fours. The thing would have withstood an earthquake and so because we only had one bedroom and I built a crib for Mikayla underneath our loft bed and at night, when Tammy would Michaela would make a peep and stir Tammy.
Would be up out of that bed down the little ladder and taking care of her. So quickly that she wouldn't wake up and, and cause a fuss. And so, we got a pretty good sleep. She was unbelievably responsive. But even with her toughness, I could see that that there's this transition that has to happen as a child gets older, right? Because when they're six months old, or nine, nine months old and younger, you have to be pretty much 100% compassionate because the infant is so helpless, but then you have to
Position from that to being well to be foster Independence, and also to implement more discipline and because the mother gets so tightly bonded to the infant and also because women are more temperamentally agreeable. It's it's not an easy thing to master both of those, right? And so it's nice to have. Well, it's optimal to have two people around and we shouldn't be afraid to say that, you know, like single mothers can do the job, but
Man, that's hard life and you're likely to be poor. If you do that very likely to be poor. Even if you started out middle-class or above it's a it's a very easy route to poverty and so optimally to and you know, and hopefully you have some grandparents and some other competent adults around to help you out. Even if there's two of you. So we have to figure out how to Value. What single mothers do or single parents. Let's say without Sim
Painlessly, devaluing the necessity of having a father in the house because it's, it's necessarily
100%. No, I think those are. Those are extremely powerful works. I think what Society does is that because, you know, the compassion and empathy of the situation that these women are in and like you said, they're Heroes, they're doing the best with the tools that they have. But then there still has to be a culture where you're where you're not just, you know, encouraging people where they're at, but pushing the Next Generation to wear
Where things should be and what's optimal for all human beings. So that's something that, you know, we belong, you should know. We
have to we have to be able to say to young man. It's like take care of your damn kids. You weasel. You know, what are you doing? Walking away from them? What are you doing? That's the adventure of your life, you're missing. And you know, if we, if we were more forthright about this, in some sense week, we could advertise children, two young men, because if you think that they're just a responsibility that just means that you don't know what the hell is going on.
Is there unbelievably fun? Especially if you're so I worked in daycares when I was a young man, which also made me someone quite strange, because I was the only guy in those daycare. So I used to there, too. I couldn't, I couldn't do this now, but I could then. So the kids are used to rut do airplane rides with them. You know, where you grab their arm and their leg and
swing around.
Yeah. Yeah, they love that. They would line up for that, right? And they used to draw them little monsters.
On pieces of paper. They were just like X's with teeth and big glaring eyes and they would line up for that too. And these are kind of mail things to do, you know, and kids. And this is something I got from my father. I think this, he's with children. They're unbelievably fun. If you're allowed to play with them and men have that physical play element to their character. And so you shouldn't be thinking of them just as a responsibility. The other thing too. Is that the relationship you have with your kids.
You're if your eyes are open. That is the best relationship you will ever have with anyone in your life. I was thinking about my son.
Tears me up because I've been so sick. I haven't seen much of him, but he came up for Thanksgiving, which was great with his wife, and his son, and he's a very good father. It's lovely to see. And, you know, I can't really ever remember having a fight with him. I mean, he got upset sometimes when he was a kid and so on, but we had a pretty untrammeled relationship all the way through and it was great. I think probably
Don't I think probably the relationship I had with have with him. Had with him was the best relationship in my life, you know, and I don't say that lightly because I have a, I love my wife and we have a great relationship and I have other people in my family who are very close including my daughter. She was more complicated because she was. So she was very ill for much of her childhood. And so that complicated things a lot. But you know, you don't take care of your kids. Well, what are you doing? Exactly? What's going to be better than that?
Like you need some meaning in your life, man. And where are you going to get something? That's better than that and I don't see it. I don't see it at all.
I agree with you. Dr. Peterson. I think, one of the biggest tragedies that occur in today's society is that, you know, it there's no longer an incentive for men to, you know, be Father's. You know, there's there's, there's a gender that has pushed at times about how fathers are absolutely no Father's Day. Now is just, you know, Mother's Day again. And, and so I think, unfortunately, a lot of men feel very useless in their role as a parent and I think that's unfortunate.
Janet because like, for my personal experience,
women are often afraid of the way that men interact with children and it's partly, you know, an extension of their proclivity to protect and so it can seem intimidating and that's what men do to play. For example, to play more roughly because it does take some courage on the part of a doting mother to, for example, let a man, throw her baby up in the air, throw her infant up at the air, you know, I mean in play obviously and there is
In it, but it tremendous excitement. I mean, children love that kind of play. And so, and, you know, it also speaks to a sort of deep distrust that many women have of men because the relationships they had with their own father, with her boyfriends or with her brother. Perhaps has been pathologized in some Manner and so there's a distrust and fair enough, but you know, trust is courage. Once you're not naive.
Eve. And if you don't trust your father, your mate, your partner, if you're a woman, you have a child, you don't trust your mate, then you cannot entice, the best out of him. You can't, you have to trust first and invite and say, well, yeah. I know you're just as stupid as me, but, you know, I'm going to trust you to do your best and to learn. And that's a, that's real courage that takes real courage, especially when it's your child that you're dealing with.
But it's much better for the child and for you because then you don't have to do all the work as a woman. And I mean, I saw women all the time in my practice but also, you know, as I had kid and kids and met other families who would really covertly punish their husbands every single time. They interacted with their kids. They glare, say something caustic, or or interfere in some way. And, and you do that 50 times to your partner and they're, they're out of the game. And there you've
He much finished that. So, yeah,
that's true. And I think, definitely, you know, hopefully episodes like this would be able to help women understand the importance of it. And dr. Warren pharaohs books, talk about that as well. And so, I think that's a great. Great point to bring. It might be hooked, might be
helpful to for me to tell you how my wife and I came about to the decision, to have kids
because that's something
men might want to know. Well, look when I
my I got together with the woman who was going to become my wife Tammy. I mean, I've known her since we were eight and she was a friend of mine when I was a kid and so we've known each other forever, but we got together seriously when we were in our late 20s, and she was really ready to have a family like now and I didn't have a permanent job at that point. Although my, you know, my prospects were good, which is part of the reason she married me and and but she wanted to start and I thought, okay, so why don't I didn't really want to do?
That and I thought, okay. What's your problem? Jordan? What is it that you're worried about? And I thought, well, there's an economic issue. That's not really serious. Are all, I'll get a job and she'll come along wherever I go if I have that job, so that's not an issue. It's like so what then? Well babies what the hell? Do I do know about babies? Nothing. I can't take care of a baby. I don't know how to do that. So I said to her, well, the reason I'm seem to be objecting is because I'm kind of doubtful about the infant.
Stage like toddlers. I know what to do with them. I can play with kids. But when they're under a year, they're like a foreign object to me in many ways. I don't I don't know what to do. And so that worries me. And so I'll tell you what. If you'll take primary care for the infant. I'll take care of you and the infant. How would that be? And and I think that's the right role. I really do believe that and you might think well that's sexist. It's like well, no, not necessarily. How are you? So sure.
Sure, that, that first year, as a mother isn't one of the great parts of the fundamental adventure of being female, like, so don't, don't give me any crap about that being sexist. That's just, I don't think so, you know, and so what I would do is watch my wife and if she got tired speller off and I did what I could to take care of the infant, but I knew that, you know, she would take care of that. Well, I stumbled around trying to learn how and she did that and that worked fine. And then, you know, as the kids got older, I took
more and more responsibility for them. And when my daughter was about two and a half, I think that's right. One and a half. We had our second child and then I took care of Michaela, the older child quite a lot after that because Tammy of course was busy, especially that first year with the infant with Julian, but that worked well, and that was a good division of labor as far as I was concerned. And also my wife was very happy about that because she loved to take care of infants and that's characteristic of a lot of women, you know, and even those that don't.
Made it and it's too bad. They don't admit it because what there's something wrong with that? Is there some I saw this tweet the other day about this, whoop grandmother mother of a, you know, a mature daughter and the daughter had announced that she was never going to have kids. And the her mother said, I think that's just great. You know, you're going to you're going to just live for you and that's just wonderful. And I'm glad you can be so independent. And I thought, how could you possibly say something that stupid to your daughter? It's like, you don't want grandchildren and and your
You're so you're so sure that she's just not ideological e addled about the fundamental realities and and Beauties and depth of life. It's like how many things do we do? We have a career if we're lucky or job. If we don't, if we're not we have an intimate relationship. We have a family. That's life, man. You miss one of those. It's well, you can do it but it's it's a big deal not to do that. So yeah,
that's true. I think I
Quite interesting because I would always hear stories about when there was, you know, older successful men who are millions of dollars and cars and everything in the world and on their lap times on her deathbed of people, that what they wish to most is to spend more time with their loved ones. So I can only imagine and vigil, just simply pursuing, whatever, you know, vanity or or whatever Pleasures at the Desiring and then to be at end of their life and to realize that you never had an opportunity to
To be able to have a family just because you were obsessed with some ideology. That some radical Professor was teaching you at your, you know, at your local
College. Yeah, or you, or you, you know, you had a more materialistic bent and that can easily happen to, you know, you think that the pleasures that wealth can bring you as a what as a solitary and free individual outweigh the terrible, you know, burdensome responsibility of a family, but if you're just if you just thinking of that responsibility as burdensome,
You're not thinking straight. It's like, no. No, you don't understand. That's a wonderful opportunity. That's what that is. And it comes at the cost, like all opportunity. And you see that to one of the saddest things. I saw a fairly regularly as a clinician was, you know, couples that had decided too late that they wanted to have kids. And then, you know, we're just turning themselves inside out with, with attempts to become to conceive and often failing and Jesus, you know, that's hard.
To recover from once you realize, that's what you want and it doesn't happen. So don't. And the other thing that people don't really realize is that your things go by pretty quick, you know, that that period of time when your kids are little, it seems like a long time. When you think about it beforehand, and even sometimes when you're living through it, but it's gone and you want to, you want to take advantage of that and I had a great career and I still do but
I can't say that it was more important to me like existentially, then my family. Like I've had a I couldn't have possibly imagined having a career that was more.
What would you say? It offered me. Everything I could have possibly wanted. Also, a lot of trouble, but, but, but nonetheless. And so, I was exceptionally fortunate in that regard, but nonetheless, if I had to pick like, I pick my family,
Yeah, no. Because of the quality of the experience, you know that I'm not just saying that out of a sense of obligation or Duty. It's like, no it fundamentally that was that was deeper and I tried to teach the deepest things. I could conceptualize and succeeded in that, at least to the degree that I could conceptualize them. But still, you know, so no know when push comes to shove, especially those years. I spent with Tammy, and Boston when our kids were little
So I man, there is something to that. Don't miss it stupid, guys. Don't miss that.
Thank you so much for sharing a doctor Peterson. I think one of the the blessings of doing this show is I'm able to bring older wiser men, such as yourself to be able to give wisdom that a lot of young people are overlooking. So I definitely hope that people take that seriously. So my question to you, dr. Peterson was
youyou've. Counseled so many numerous people throughout the years in your practice and probably just so many different young adults, especially, young men. What would you say from your personal experience? Has been one of the most consistent issues that you see plaguing young men and holding them back from all your years of experience.
Well, one of them is wrong attitude towards education.
And, you know, because it's easy, and I tell like I said temperamentally, I was disinclined to enjoy School, especially from grade 7 through grade 12 specialty say that high. Well, all my friends were kind of delinquent types in some ways and so, they acted up and so, did I? And I was pretty mouthy, but also,
It was too slow for me, you know, like if when I took language arts in grade 8, I had read the whole Year's books in the first. I think it was the first day, but it was certainly the first week and so it just bored. I was just bored to death. So that wasn't so good. And you know, it can be a bit infantilizing because of the rule structure. Like I said, a lot of my friends, they just weren't going to put up their hand when they wanted to go.
The bathroom anymore. They were just done with that. And but one of the things young men aren't taught properly and I mean, even at the age of let's say 11 young is like, there is nothing that will make you more powerful than your words. And so if you think that reading and writing is for pansies and dimwits, you know, or teachers pets because they get in less trouble in school. Let's say,
say, you're seriously misinformed and so
You know, I talk to people like choco willing can charcoal is is tough a guy as you could ever hope to encounter about literacy and a number of other people too who are also seriously tough guys Congressman Dan. What Stan's last name?
Then Crenshaw? It's
Crenshaw. Yeah. Sorry about that. I have a bit of memory issues with that sort of thing at the moment. Yeah. Well, he's as tough as a bloody boot that guy, you know, and and and both those characters and
It's Murphy's one of Canada's outstanding journalist, another T. So get damp tough. It's crazy, and they all know perfectly. Well, that literacy is a huge part of what's made them Unstoppable. And you don't take that lightly, you know, it's really serious and it's a failing of our education system that it's not that literacy isn't marketed properly. Two young men. It's like straighten up speak properly, right? Learn to write y because that
The same as learning to think and why should you think? Because you won't do as many stupid things and your horizons will widen. And then to, when you need to entice, people along your journey, hopefully, somewhere good. You'll be able to do it because you'll be compelling. And it's, there's something deeply pathological about the way our society markets literacy, two young men in particular. Because while partly, we just won't
Allow for the let's say the marketing association between toughness and dangerousness and literacy. There's something wrong about that. We think some weird way and it's just, it's, that's wrong. It's like sure you should be physically tough and you should be tough in your temperament as well as having the capacity for play and compassion, you know, that has to be developed to, but that's not enough and I don't care how tough you are physically. You're nowhere near
Is tough, as you would be if you were physically tough and really literate. And then you're you're an Unstoppable force and hopefully for for good and that's a much tougher battle than, you know, being tough for your own idiotic selfish ends. That's just pathetic. And so, and I don't start understand where we've developed a writing program, which is called essay which teaches people how to write well that use it. It's a word process but it teaches people how to write.
As you use it, we built that into the program itself and I really want to Market it to young men. Say look, you know.
Get your words together and then see what you can do and don't be thinking that that's somehow beneath you. That just means you're stupid, that you think that you don't know anything. You think that it's wrong and you're limiting yourself so much. You can't even imagine it. You might not even figured out till you're 60 or and then it's too late. So read right think, right? That's, that's what we need.
What's good, everybody? We're going to take a
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No, that's that's great. I was also I taught middle school. So the thirteen-year-old rally people that you yet you guys were that was no. Those are my classroom toss seventh grade. And and so one of the things I found was that a lot of the students who couldn't Express themselves verbally or written, you know, one of the ways they express himself was through violence. And I think what you what you talked about by the importance of education, and importance of being able to articulate your ideas.
Be able to, you know, read is one of the things that I've seen with a lot of the students that were misbehaving in my classroom, because one of the biggest frustrations was not being able to express themselves, especially not being able to, you know, be in an environment where they can succeed academically. So what do you think schools should be doing to be able to help young men? Do better at this instead of following behind that the race of the been falling behind at today?
Well, I think a fair bit of it is going to have to do with proper explanation about why they need to learn to write read and and I also think that our schools led by the faculties of education at universities, which is a corrupt, an Enterprise that's become corrupted, almost beyond belief.
There's no we should make much more of an effort to ensure that kids are unbelievably proficient readers. And a lot of that is going to involve, early automatized ization of letter and phoneme, and syllable and word recognition. So because what happens is, when you teach a child to read, first of all, you teach them the alphabet and the sounds and we have an alphabetic language. Thank God because it makes things much simpler. And so you teach them the letters and then the tool.
Combinations. And then the three letter combinations, then they can sound out syllables and then they get words, but it isn't until you can read phrases automatically at a glance that you can read for content and pleasure. And so a lot of kids get stuck especially if they don't come from particularly literate homes. Where all of this is sort of taught, you know, maybe starting at, you know, 12 months when they're first dragging, a book around and, and becoming familiar with the book as an object, right?
Before they even learn to read, you got to get kids through that, ultimate ization, phase and that requires intense, massed practice, and that's not that intrinsically, interesting. Right? But if you can get them to the point where they could read for Content, well, then it starts to become interesting. Just as interesting. Let's say, is going to a movie or perhaps playing a video game. And so that has to be made an absolute priority and and the fire if the faculties of Education were doing their job, they would have produced technology to solve that.
For virtually every child because it is only a matter of practice. Smarter kids will learn faster, but with enough practice pretty much everybody is going to get there. So and then there's the marketing issue. It's like, well, why should you read while? Do you want to be stupid? You want to be stupid? What happens when you're stupid you walk into walls? Because you don't see them and if someone comes along, who's more educated than you more literate and County, ER, they'll just you'll lose, man, you'll lose.
Lose and you'll lose too because you can't think properly. So you won't aim at the right things and you won't be informed by the great individuals of the past and you need that. We're historical creatures. This isn't optional.
So part of it has to be marketing for lack of a better word. It's not really that, it's an explanation. Why? Be literate? Because it makes you, it helps you become who you could be helps. You move out into the world and have your great adventure and to bring people along. God only knows what you can do. If you've got your words lined up properly and young men would listen to about if someone who knew what they were talking about, was telling them that out.
As you found out.
Yeah, how did you maintain discipline in your grade 7 classes?
How did I maintain discipline gray, seven classes? Your wonder your, to
probably your to?
Yeah, so so the way I maintained isn't your one was chaos. So I taught in a in a community called, as stops is in Dallas. Fort Worth is Fort Worth Texas. It's called its top six Community. Historically black school. Probably 70%, black student body population, 9012 28 or 29.
Percent Hispanic 1% way, so it was a very difficult school to go to year one was absolute chaos, but I explain to you how I did in year two. So what what I realized was that one of the biggest challenges when it comes to individuals teaching is a Authority Dynamic. And what happens with a lot of students is that, you know, they come from environments where they're not used to Authority, especially masculine Authority. And so they're they're they don't
Respond, well, to anger and violence, right? But then they do respond well to it if it's their parents who can actually execute the anger and violence. So you just screaming at them. You just punishing them. You just disciplining them does not work. So what I had to do was I was I was also the football coach at that team. Was I had to do was I had to balance, you know, this dynamic between being able to be a disciplinarian, but also being able to beat somebody very compassionate and caring and
People and the students felt like I care. And so what ended up happening was after the first year and really building with all the students. When year to came around, there was so much of a rapport from the older students that I talk is not even from 7th to 8th. Grade that all the younger brothers and sisters in seventh and sixth grade. Now would be more obedient to me because of the respect that I've earned from going to war with their older siblings. And so, one of the most encouraging
seeing parts of my entire school year was, you know, it was very rough school. We got a new principal just was absolute chaos and the principal walked into my classroom. The second half of the second semester and he said that we did and we did a poll amongst all students and we asked them, which teacher do you believe cares? The most any and almost all the students said you and so to me by being able to be somebody that they
Stood genuinely cares and values them. I was then able to be more authoritative and firm because they understood that, what I was doing wasn't out of abuse or to take advantage of them, or to bully them, or diminish them, but was actually to do what was best for them. So gaining, their trust was the first way to be able to do so, and in also being able to be somebody who's tough and tender because eat if you're too tough, they view as a totalitarian dictatorship.
Tater and they're going to war against you did. You're too tender. They will run you right out that school and live here. Multiple teachers,
quit. If you're too tough. You're not tough right. Once you get too tough. Your that's not tough anymore. That's more like. Well, that's more like cruel and to be really tough. You have to have to be truly tough. In the proper way. You have to have that drive to interact with the students and to, and to be aimed at actually making their lives better. So, how did you survive the first year?
Honestly, what saved me was football, so I was a football coach and I was out I'm better at like that structure. I'm better at being myself because you know, there is an aggressive nature that you can administer as a football coach that as a teacher. You just can't do some of the things that you could do. And so what happened was all the alpha males of the school played football and so by
He being their head coach and kind of being, you know, the the top of the dominance hierarchy for them. They fell in line pretty easily and so around the so you can establish your
credibility out there on the football field. And so that exactly again. Have you watched Ted lasso.
Um, I've not, I don't think I've watched that. Oh man, you movie was that,
no, it's a TV series Sudeikis and, and he's a coach. He's a football coach from the US who goes to the UK to coach, a soccer team and a
lasting. I've seen the little commercials
for its great. You I think you'd love it. One of the reason I'm bringing it up is because it's one of the few sitcoms that I've seen in the last 40 years that actually portrays while people positively because it portrays virtually every character in a
On naive positive way. It's very funny and and very witty, but the main character is an extremely positive male figure and like that's that just doesn't happen. And so it's extremely interesting and it touches on this issue of the development of leadership and character through Sports coaching and it does that very nicely. So it's good to see that show because, you know, those sorts of things are bellwethers for culture and it's great show. He's a wise writer.
Some of those scenes are so good. It's just it's quite stunning. So anyways, it's great. It's really great. So, okay, so you establish your credibility and how long did you teach middle school?
So I did middle school for two years and then I did preschool for two years. So I did I did for I did four years in total and what happened was the biggest fundamental challenge was that I realized that what I was doing.
Not a sustainable model because the energy and effort that I was putting into my initial seventh grade class when gear to came around. I wasn't able to put it into my second seventh grade class because I was still having to, you know, be the father brother counselor individual to the eighth graders, so I didn't have the time to do it in the seventh grade. And so then when my eighth graders were going to ninth grade now my 74 years ago with April's getting new group of kids. I just knew that
or what I was doing to be able to establish the change in the structure in the school system. I knew that I couldn't create a sustainable model, which then led me to, you know, want to do other things outside of it, including this podcast. And so, two bands. Two years later, say,
although your teaching now to a much broader audience. And so that's a good thing. Yeah,
so and what's funny? Dr. Peterson is a lot of my older students, like, because it's been eight years and they sad story. They all
Graduated from there during the 2020. And so it's really interesting. Now that they're all like I met them when they were 12 years old. They're about their 20 year old men now and I've been meeting with them. I've recently moved back because I left the city. I was in Dallas and so now I'm able to sit down with them and now hear their stories about life. After, you know, our when I was at their coach and their teacher is quite fast.
Fascinating. And there's so many things that you see. There's so many gaps in her development and so many gaps like you said, when it comes to education and then you see a lot of them suffer because of it in the long
haul. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's I saw so much of that especially when I was on tour to see how widespread that problem really is, especially that problem of encouragement, you know, and yeah,
so what do you think? What do you think? I was going to ask you?
If in regards to the problem of encouragement, what do you because to me, I feel as though so many of the societal message is always a bumbling. Idiot, Homer, Simpson, Peter Griffin and a lot of men don't have encouraging messages. Well, be able to start them on a journey to
success. It's really, if you're afraid of male power. Let's say crippling them is one solution. Yeah. Now it's not a good solution.
And that's going to happen if you think of the patriarchy as a tyrant.
And look, there's reasons to think that, you know, so I was watching this movie King Arthur by Guy Ritchie. And when, when the new king young King Arthur takes his sword. He has flashbacks to his evil. Uncle killing his father. And it just it's so terrible that he can't hold onto the sword and I thought, well, it's Richie doing there. It's well, that's the case for all of us, isn't it? Because when we look into the past and we see our evil uncle's, it's just
Complete. Bloody catastrophic mess, isn't it slavery and genocide and War and oppression? And like, and that's on all of us, isn't it? And it's always lurking there in the background and so, is that male power? Well, yes, in some ways. I mean, if you don't give a man a sword, he can't use a sword, right? So not giving him a sword is one way of making sure he's peaceful, but it's not the, it's not the optimal way and besides, if you crippled men, they become far more dangerous.
They become dangerous in a nun. Terrible underground. Fashion. Of course the same as exactly true if you crippled women, but we're speaking particularly of boys because I suppose there's an education crisis among boys and young men. Well, you want to encourage that power because it's actually a tremendous Force for good if it's brought under control and so but that's a hard thing to get, right? And it also requires a lot of trust and work on the part of women because they want to it's like Beauty and the Beast, right? Because
The entices that Beast, who's a real who's real but uncivilized and dangerous, she sort of entices him into becoming fully developed. And that's what a woman has to do. And she, you know, has that work project that she marries or has a long-term relationship with. But it's much better to encourage with with faith and trust and say, you know, I saw this really with my son a lot with my son because he isn't ornery.
Little cos. He he's quite low in agreeableness. My son and he loved the word. No. And he really worried that word to death and he was quite he could he pushed limits and it was fun to watch because he was such a little guy, like how give you an example of this? It's quite funny.
When he was about eight months old, he wanted to use the spoon and it's like, good kid, you know, if you want to use the spoon and you got to learn and so on and so, and then when he had this spoon, there was no damn way. You were going to take that spoon from him. He was going to put up quite the bloody fuss. If you were going to take that spoon, but he was also really inclined to play. And so after, he'd had this Boon for about two weeks, he would spend way more time playing than eating. And that was okay. Not really because
And he would be hungry and then he would be crabby. And then he wouldn't have a nap. And then he would upset my wife because he was crab because he didn't have a nap, and things were just degenerating. And so I thought, alright, I'm take the spoon from him because he is not eating enough. And I thought with him, that's the fight ahead of myself. I probably fought with him for three hours before he would. Let me feed him with that spoon and it was so interesting to watch him. It was like, mmm. I'm
I'm not opening my mouth and he's like nine months old, you know, and I had to poke them in the in the chest, poke poke, poke poke poke. Then he get mad and go, ah, and then I could feed him a little bit of food. And if I wasn't angry, you know, because I knew I could outweigh it nine-month-old for God's sake, but three hours, you know what? And it was really hard on my wife. She had to leave the room, you know, and because it took some conflict. Well, that's his character. He's a tough. He was a tough little kid.
Inclined to push boundaries and to challenge dominance hierarchies. And, you know, there is an element of that that is challenging and difficult, but
He became unbelievably diplomatic from worrying that line, you know? And my wife did a lovely job of shaping and molding that and encouraging it. Because she wasn't, she wasn't afraid of that. And she really loved him. And so, she and my wife, my wife likes men. So, sort of deeply she had her elements of distrust that were part of familial baggage like and everybody has that, but fundamentally, she liked men and she likes to be with men. So
So we have that going for us, but we're afraid of masculine. Huh? Women have had bad experiences with men can't distinguish competence from tyranny, and that's right. And so they, you know, they reject the Tara T or they'll marry second-rate men because then they can rule the roost, which is about very bad solution.
Yeah, but know, it's funny because what you describe as what is what I've seen a lot of and
One of the things that happens is that like you said, men can use your strength to, you know, build up cities and also making use your strength to tear them down. And so what people want to do is, okay. Let's just remove this strength, all together. And I meet a lot of young men and you probably experience has numerous of times throughout your your work where I meet a lot of young men whose mom wanted to make them the anti man, you know, you're not going to be like your daddy. Not going to be like this guy. You're not going to be this and these men end up having no backbone.
End up having no ability to speak their mind and they become these prototypical. Nice guys. And so, what has been your experience with dealing with these men who have these nice guy, Tendencies who can't stand up for themselves who their moms raised them to be this type of anti
man. Yeah. Well, sometimes that can also be temperamental, right? Because if a man happens to be high in agreeableness, this is also true of women, they're much more conflict, averse, and, and, and they're nicer in their temperament. So so and so if
If you get an agreeable, boy, let's say who also has a doting mother. Then you might have that problem. There's other ways of having that problem. But that's one way. Well, when I saw people like that in therapy, they were often resentful and angry and passive aggressive and and getting in their own way often to spite, you know, who ever was.
Doting on them, let's say. And so the first thing I would do is listen to why they were there and then start to unpack that anger. And then start to work with the individual to figure out how to voice that, you know, for have to separate out, what's old history, and useless. And what's just narcissism, and infantile ISM from genuine concerns, but if you listen to people, they will sort that out for themselves.
That's one of the cool things about being a therapist is if you listen that happens more or less by itself and then as a behavioral psychologist, you know, maybe someone like that would need a raise and but would be afraid to ask the boss. Well, we just practice that. It's like, okay. Well, first of all, why should your boss give you a raise? Like there might be good reasons. He doesn't want to lose you because you're a good worker. Well, are you a good worker? And if you weren't Well, we'd solve that problem. Put yourself in a position.
Where are you?
You deserve the raise. Okay. Well now you're too timid for or your to unskilled because you have to differentiate those two things too, because some people who can't stand up for themselves, actually don't know how
whereas others are afraid and some are both. And so you have to figure out some of its skill training. Well, how do you actually ask your boss for a raise? Well, you tell the truth, that's the best way to say. Look, you know, here's what I'm doing. Here's why it's really useful for you. It looks like I'm somewhat underpaid in this role. That's demotivating me. Possibly. I also have other options. I think I need, you know, 15% more and I'm interested in moving up. And here's what I'll do.
For you if you do that. And so, you know think about it and then if your boss doesn't do that and they all that's true. Well, then you should be assertive enough to find another job, or maybe you look for another job before you even ask.
For the Rays, put your CV together. Right? Update it. So you're not afraid to look for another job. All this is strategic thinking, that was another thing that was really fun about clinical work. Most of my clients. They doubled or tripled their salaries within three or four years, you know, they worked out at this wasn't nothing. This was Major League strategic planning and that was true for women and men, you know, so, and that's very fun to watch that happen. Strategy strategy, us think.
Lie about it, right? And get your act together, you know, and you got to see what's getting in your way. So maybe you're afraid to ask your boss for a raise because if he says, no, you'd have to look for a job and you don't have your resume or CV updated. And the reason you don't have it updated is because you're embarrassed about, it's the lakhs in it and you don't want to face the locks because then you'd have to see how you didn't get educated properly because you were useless and you'd have to take steps to rectify that and like it's a real mess down there, right? The reasons you're not asking. So we'd lay that all out.
Out and then say, well you're you're embarrassed about your resume. Well, update it and let's take a look at it. Okay. Well, here's some holes and they're not good. What could you do to fix those and then you break it down into small steps, right? Implementable steps. That's very practical. So, that's a good thing to know. If you're if you're, if you have your sights set on a goal.
Your move towards it if you break the steps down small enough so that even someone is useless as you will do it. And that also requires a fair bit of humility because what you might find especially if you're avoiding something, is that the step you are actually willing to take is so small that you're embarrassed to admit it to yourself. So you won't take any steps at all. Well, that's completely counterproductive. And the reason that's not
Proper thinking, let's say or productive thinking is that well small steps, get bigger real fast and you. It doesn't matter where you start. If you're doubling your utility every, you know, few weeks, who cares, where you start, it starts to take off real quick. So you don't want to be embarrassed. You don't want to be so embarrassed by, where you are, that it stops you from becoming who you could be and not stuff. It can be re that's real tough. I'm not making light of that. I see exactly why people.
Avoid, but it's it's not a it's not a good solution. So so for assertiveness, that's what you do, you know, and maybe you practice how people maybe they're afraid to, you know, ask a woman for her phone number. And so you practice that and and then you use exposure training. It's like, well, go and practice that say hi to a pretty woman when you pass her on the street. That's your task for this week and see how you do, see how you respond. See if you can do that. See if you avoid.
And if you do avoid see what you're thinking, when you avoid, you know, and see if you made eye contact, and if you were standing up reasonably straight like, you know, like a reasonable human being and we'd practice these tiny things because they are not tiny man. You wouldn't believe how many people don't have friends because they don't know how to introduce themselves and Shake Hands. Hmm. I bet you. There's five percent of the population has no friends at all because they don't know how to do that.
Wow, it's really sad. It is extremely sad, and this
little time and, and I love what you talked about that being proactive about, you know, going over your fears. Because I think for a lot of nice guys is to fear of rejection to fear of failure. Such a crippling thing to wear, which is why they either, you know, disappear into the Shadows are just being extremely agreeable. So yeah. Well,
your here's a, here's a cure for that, man. It's like
Do you want the horror of failure or the certainty of failure? The horror of potential failure or the certainty of failure? Because if you don't do this you will fail. Now it'll be put off, but it will absolutely happen. And so that fear, I understand why that stops people. There's it's no joke to be rejected and it's going to happen while you practice and it is a real fear, but you're deluding Yourself by thinking that there's a no fear or
Should there's just a delayed fear option, right? Because if you don't get this, right, well, you're going to fail for sure. And then you're going to be miserable and vindictive and bitter, and anxiety-ridden, and you're going to cause trouble for yourself. And you're going to take it out on women and other man. And like, that's an ugly path, man. And so, I see why you're afraid, but you should be way more afraid of that. And that's a nice way to help people get their thinking straight about fear. It's like, no zero fear path.
That's powerful. Dr. Peterson so-and-so, with 12 rules for life. And also with Beyond order you, you've met so many amazing rules that I just think it's just so phenomenal. One of my favorites is Rule 4 and 12 volts for life, you know, don't compare yourself to others where others are today compared stuff to who we were yesterday and so in your opinion, obviously, you know, there's so many rules that are great. But what do you think is probably if somebody was to read those books and there's one rule
That you like this rule of the 24. I've given you over these past few years. You can absolutely not get this one wrong. Which rule would that be?
Tell the truth? Or at least don't lie. Because you can't tell the truth, right? Because who are you to tell the truth? That's a that's a mighty tall order, man, but you can stop saying things that, you know, are lies and that will change your life.
If you do that and it's
quite a change in their
life.
Well, how can you adapt to reality when you falsify it? You think? Well, I'm just lying to other peoples. No, you're not. You can't just lie to other people because what you say, becomes you, especially if you practice it because we build ourselves out of words and that can be lies in action to. It's like, don't don't say things, you know to be false. That's a that's a good start man and it allows yourself with the truth. And that like, how can that be a bad idea?
You may imagine that what is true, reflects reality, which is sort of the definition of true. How can failing to align yourself with reality work? How is that possibly going to work? Well, you say well, I can you know, if I lie, I get away with something. It's like no you don't you do I tell you? I swear this is true and all of my clinical practice.
I have never ever seen anyone ever get away with anything, even once you think the chickens won't come home to roost. It's like all that that means is you're too stupid to see what your lies caused or to blind or to self-deceptive. You just don't see it.
And so you don't get away with anything. Nothing. It's terrifying to actually understand that it's terrifying.
What if you can't get away with anything ever, you know, well, that's the judgmental, God, fundamentally. That's a very old idea and it's an old idea for a reason and of course, you can't get away with anything because imagine that you took a flexible plastic comb, you know, when you bent it backwards, you say, well I got away with that. It's like, well, what's going to happen when you let go, it's going to snap back and hit you in the face. And that's that's life, man. You warp the structure of reality.
Do you think you are someone who can warp the structure of reality with your words and get away with it? Really?
No, man, that should that should terrify you right to the core of your soul. You're not God.
You can't do that, sir Peterson. You've said that you've never seen someone get away with lying. What do you mean by that? Because I can imagine if somebody listened to his right now with said, well, I haven't totally truthing and I got away with plenty of things in my past. What do you mean by that?
Everything is right in your life. Everything is just the way you want it to be. That's how it is. Is it? Yeah, sure. And good, if find someone like that, great, if I've never seen anyone like that.
Psychopaths, you know, they have no conscience. They lie all the time. Well, how do they get away with it? They don't, they have to move because people figure out who they are and then they have to move on. And so you could say, well, that's getting away with it. It's like, well, no, no, no long-term relationships. No love, no trust. No, no, no brotherly affection. No friends, you know and generally no financial success. Not in the real sense. How is that?
Getting away with it and then you might say, well I've got away with it so far. It's like maybe you have and maybe you're just too dim to see the consequences, because you've blinded yourself, and God only knows who you could have been. If you wouldn't have lied your way to where you are now. No, it's I've never seen it. And, you know, sometimes I work with someone to untangle what had happened to them over multiple years as things fell apart, and we'd find all sorts of Lies.
Not always once they told but sometimes lies their parents told them. For example, that deep dark terrible things, you know, messing things up and unbelievably catastrophic and tragic way. Now is absolutely terrifying but I can't see how it just doesn't make sense. It's like, how could you possibly defend the idea that you could warp the structure of reality and get away with it? I mean, who, like I said, who do you think you are? Reality is?
You don't mess with it. Like it kills you, and it'll torture. You quite a lot before doing that. If you're not, if you're on particularly unlucky, so beware, you know, they say the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. That's that judgmental. God Psych.
You violate your conscience, man.
You will pay. That's hell. Yeah,
that's that's really powerful. And I love the medical physical representation as you talked about throughout your books because I think that's something really big in today's world where a lot of a lot of individuals, you know, there there's a fear of societal consequences and they don't speak the truth and they lied. Yeah, but their spirit and their souls being torn apart on the inside and though, they appear.
To be getting away with it. When they sleep at night. They just know that they're not being their authentic selves and they know they're living a lie.
Yeah. Well, I'm they get weaker as you become what you practice, you know, and if you withdraw and Li you become some, you become a lying coward. That's what happens. You don't have practice that much before, that's the case. So, is that what you want, you know? Well, no one will get, no one will come after me. So, yes, they will.
Part of it is also realizing really understanding in some way that there's no Escape. You know, there's no safe path. There is Noble Path. There's an honorable path. There's no safe path and possibly, you wouldn't want that anyways, because well, who are you? Exactly, you know, look at you, you know, Warriors stock, every single one of your ancestors, has stayed alive for three and a half billion years. It's like good work, man. That's a lot. And so,
What makes you so sure you're built for safety.
What makes you so sure that that's what we should strive for. And then if you want Adventure, I'll tell you an adventure. What an adventure is you tell the truth is nearly as you can and you'll have the adventure of your life.
That's for sure.
So
You know, and that isn't that isn't trying to fit in because you're naive or you know, because you're too afraid to lie, that doesn't make you telling the truth. If you're too afraid to lie, that's, you know, in a cowardly sort of way. There's a wise way of being too afraid to lie. So, and I know I thought to, you know, when I looked into atrocity, deeply, and I looked into it for 15 years, meditated on the human capacity for atrocity. It was pretty awful.
It was awful, you know, reading those stories of what happened in the Nazi concentration camps, what happened in well everywhere and then trying to think about what you'd have to be like to do that. And then thinking it through, it's awful.
And that was, it was doing that. I realized all that was tangled up with lies. And so that's part of this issue of male power. You know, how do you keep male power Noble and virtuous with the truth? Lies, the turn competence into tyranny, so, don't lie unless you want to be an incompetent Tyrant, and you think that's easier. It's like,
In some ways I suppose.
It's easier because you can slide into that. But existentially, it's Hell and Hell has this weird quality because it feels like it's Eternal. Mmm.
That's power. Yeah. Did you see the recent article? I think I'm a professor and why you named Scott Galloway? Believe his name was and he talked about how that there is a mating crisis going on in the western world. And one of the reasons why he brought it up was that, you know, in the typical college and university 60%.
Them is female 40% of it as male. And a lot of the college age, females are college, graduates, college graduates, who are females. They only want Partners, who are also college graduates. So have you seen an article and in, what are your thoughts about a
mating? Well, what seems to be what seems to be happening is that if the if male enrollment Falls below a certain percentage and it looks like it's something like 40%, then the females start not
Not going to and I know that's not surprising. I mean really, of course how many people meet their prospective mates and University or college? Like, while a pretty much everyone who goes that route. So it's not surprising that, that would happen with young people. And so, and the fact that male enrollment is declining, is well, it's a shocking indictment of the education system in general. Not and the failure of boys. All the way through the education system is the same thing. The increasing failure of boys.
So, you know, part of it. I thought that part of it might be that girls will play boys games, but boys won't play girls games. So there's a bit of that going on with boys themselves. I think. But more than that is dr. Peterson. Well, if a girl plays boys games, she's admired by the girls and the boys, but if a boys boy plays girl games, while he's not necessarily admired by the girls or the boys right now that I don't mean that that doesn't I don't mean that.
Boys, shouldn't play with girls or something stupid, like that. That isn't what I mean. I'm trying to figure out this enrollment issue and what's going on, you know, and obviously, girls for whatever reason are being encouraged to Value their education in a way that boys aren't, you know, and that's partly marketing and messaging as well because girls are taught fairly consistently. Now that they should be their best self and the world needs more female power and so on and so forth and that's probably true, but the
Underlying message there as well, instead of boy Power and Manpower, not not along with, but instead of yeah, because, you know, if women ran the world, there'd be no Wars. It's like yeah, right. Yeah, right. You really think that? It's like, how dim can you possibly be to believe that, you know, it's
so, so something else. I've been here in dr. Peterson. A lot of a lot of young men have been sharing with me and I'm not sure how much you've heard of it or experience it. They've been sharing.
That, you know, that they feel as though the average woman has no desire for the average male and that because of things like social media online, dating things along those lines, as well as just some of the female empowerment, where a lot of women have a. Some, this is what they say. An elevated sense of self that that now they feel like they're above a lot of these average male, which also contributes to a disparity between young adults, being able to connect and
Meaningful relationship. Yeah.
Well, men, women are more picky and they're made choices than men especially sexually. That's the case in every culture. It's and it's not surprising because women have more at stake sexually than men. Do, you know, per episode, because men don't get pregnant, obviously. And so that female pickiness is that. That's, that's the case. That's definitely true whether it's worse now or not. I doubt if it is, I would say to young men who are irritated at women is
If you're irritated at women, you know, as a class of creature, there's something wrong with you because they're right. You're wrong there, right? To not pick you. If they're not picking you, it's because they're right. Wow. Now that might be get. No, that's a terrible thing to say, B, and I know perfectly. Well, it wasn't like I was particularly successful with girls when I was young, you know, so I know what that rejection is. Like I know what that fear is like, I don't know it as well as some men, know it.
I wasn't rejected outright. So, but what you have to understand is that what do you expect from women, if you got pregnant because you had sex, you'd be pretty damned choosy to. So, you know, clue in a bit and then, well, don't they find you attractive? Well, maybe you're not like, have you paid attention to how you dress? Do you have a plan or use educated as you could be? You know, are you liar? Are you rabbit?
And pornography user because maybe that's undermining your motivation to seek out a woman and grow yourself up. It's like if you're rejected constantly and you're out there, really trying, you know, because that's another thing to ask yourself as well. How many women have you actually asked out? And are you? So sure that you're not picking women, who will certainly reject you because you're trying to Bath out of your league because you might be
So and I'm speaking about this as a clinician to because I had plenty of men in my practice who were you know, radically unsuccessful with women. I had one man in particular. He was so afraid of women. He couldn't even he couldn't use the phone. He was too afraid of everyone to use the phone and he had been bullied like mad and you know, he had his problems so I know what this is like but pornography is a big problem.
It's a big problem. It's a real curse that pornography in my opinion because it's an easy out. And so we don't know we don't know what the consequences of that are. We know starting to understand some of them but
If you were, if you were better.
You'd be more successful with women. So you have to, you have to have that in your mind and they're not, you cannot be angry at women. It's stupid women. It's like, that's, it's, like, women being angry at men. It's a sign of psychological trouble that.
So you feel as though dr. Peterson is that, you know, for the for the men who are complaining about the standards of women, too.
And it would be an elevated that it's not so much a focus of pointing the finger at them, not choosing them but more. So looking in the mirror and ask themselves. What can they do to improve themselves to be so desirable instead of focus it simply in on the inability of? Yeah, you know, what do you
little stronger? Be a little stronger dress, a little better, speak a little more, clearly aim, a little higher like and practice that, you know, and
that'll work. Now, you know, I know that that's more difficult for some people than others because some people bear incredibly difficult developmental burdens, you know, and I'm not saying that this is easy, but I'm saying that
It's a useful reaction. Like what else you going to do? What else are you going to do complain about women? I know I've seen that in, man. I went out with a group of men who are having trouble with their wives and they going off to this like Couples Retreat and it was mostly rubbish. Although they were trying a bit to get their lives together and spend a whole day with them. There were three of them. And one of them was a guy that I had known for quite a while and every single word. He said, was a lie, and so, and all these
He's three did the whole day was complain about their wives and I thought, what the hell is wrong with you guys? Like you picked them.
There are there these women you picked. You know what, maybe they have their flaws, but they're your wives, and that's how you talk about them. And you think they're the problem. You're so dumb that you don't even know that you shouldn't badmouth, your wife, just because she's your wife like, when Tammy. And I got married, we had a discussion of both that it's like she has her flaws and I have my flaws, but I'm her husband and she is my wife and
And there's a certain respect that goes along with that category if you have any sense, and so that's an extension of the same thing.
You know, it's best to look to yourself now there now and then you can you know, things have gone wrong in society and you have to to Bear your responsibilities. You have to address that a social level and a communal level, but fundamentally, it's like and you do so, so much less harm. If you look to yourself first as the problem doesn't believe me, you're plenty of problem for you. That's your old, the problem you need for you. That's for sure.
So, what would you say? Dr. Peterson to the young men are pushing back on this idea? And the young men who who say like, you know, traditionally speaking. There was a sort of mating where, if you were a guy, you're a middle class. Can get a middle class partner. You were guy making 40,000 dollars. You can get a certain level partner that in some communities in some environments, you know, because of you know degrees or things like that. If you're a guy, you know, making fifty thousand dollars a year or 60 thousand dollars a year.
You doing relatively well that the women in your, in your cohort who work who are similar Partners to you, may not desire you instead of wanting a part in making 61 a partner making a tea. So what would you say, slaves,
ghostly? I mostly I'd say that was an excuse and, but I wouldn't go farther than that because, you know, I don't know how to answer those questions in some ways at a collective level, which is why focus on the individual. If someone came to me and told me that, the first thing I would,
Do is listen to them for like 10 sessions just to find out what they're thinking and to find out what the problem actually is because they think they know what the problem is. You know, it's these picky women and that could be the problem, you know, for them. It might be, maybe there's a demographic issue or Community issue that I don't understand. So I wouldn't assume that I knew what the problem was, but those sorts of things in my experience, have to be solved.
At a high level of detail like at high resolution. So let's say you are having trouble finding a mate, you know, and you think well, I'm you know, I'm reasonably symmetrical. I'm indecent physical condition. I'm young. I have a decent salary but still, okay. Well, that's a deep dive issue. I don't know what what's wrong. We'd have to talk about that and I do. Mostly listen. It's like you seem. Okay. So why don't you have a partner? Well, that's deep mystery. Like it's really a
Deep mystery. It's nothing trivial. There's no simple solution to about. And so again, that's why I don't really do sociology in some sense, you know, except in so far as I understand the role of the individual in relationship to society, you know, so I would go, I would say
I would save to someone like that, you know, practically if you want to do something, go see a behavior or cognitive behavioral psychologist and take the problem apart and strategize that you'll
figure this out. That's good. That's good. Because things serious problem, right? Yeah, definitely serious problem. And I think what ends up happening is that, like you said, too many people create a one-size-fit-all problem to their, to what they're going on. So, they say, well, the reason I'm successful is because the a, but in reality,
T, if you could talk to a wiser individual sit down, you might realize that the problem isn't a aka the women. Maybe the problem is that, you know, you're lacking Compass like a communication skill, you're picking the wrong kind of individuals and there's a myriad of varieties of issues instead of just simply making the chocolate one-size-fit-all problem.
Yes. Absolutely. Well, it's also in some ways a lot less depressing to particularize like that because you find out a bunch of problems. You don't have
Right, so you can just those are those aren't my problems turns out. My problem is this and then that might be non-trivial and probably is but it's least. It's not everything right and I also think that when we talk about things like climate change, it's like, well really, there's no such thing as the climate. It's not a useful word when you turn to solve a problem and what do you mean by change? Exactly. Like the these are really low resolution Concepts and all the solutions are high resolution and it
Requires particularized expertise to solve some genuine actionable problem. You have to decompose the problem and then you have to be satisfied with addressing some micro element of it. There's no fixing climate change it that, that conceptually that's just it's just an indication of unsophisticated thinking, that's all it is. And then there's an insistence, well, climate
Change is real. Well, what do you mean by real? What do you mean by change? What do you mean by climate? How much do you know about climate? And I'm just picking on that, because it's a real overgeneralization. It's not helpful. And when you talk to real experts, they've particularized. So I'll give you an example, Glenn shellenberger. I hope I got that, right. I've just talked to him. He wrote this book recently called apocalypse, never, and he was a climate activists eco-activists for a long time, but
But you know, he he kept delving into things and particular Rising them and then he wrote this book and one of the things he said was he talked to an MIT scientist who said if you want to knock carbon dioxide emissions down. The best thing to do would be to work to help India burn more coal.
It's like who would guess that except a particularized expert. The reason for that is that it's better than wood and it's a pathway on the way to natural gas and perhaps nuclear.
But it's not obvious. Because in the short term, it makes the problem worse, or it seems to. And so that's particularized knowledge. And you have to particularize your problem. Why can't men find women to date? That's not your problem. Your problem is why you can't find the woman you want.
And you you have to assume that's your problem because otherwise you have to assume that it's the woman's problem and really they're all wrong and you're right. Really? Hmm. Lucky you maybe you are, you're an Undiscovered Gem of some sort. Probably not.
No. That was that was really powerful Jordan piece and I loved the call, always back to accountability. And so as one who's been married for so many decades, I think one of the
Challenges, a lot of men do, is they, they aim for the wrong women are they picked the wrong women? So in your personal experience from the years of marriage and there's also years of study. What would you say are things that meant to need to be focusing in on when it's trying to select a woman for a long-term marriage
partner?
Where are you, one? Someone honest?
That's really really important. Someone who will tell who will do her best to tell you tell the truth. And my wife's were should do that before we got married. And and she has
Probably better than I have.
and so that's that's a rock man at the bottom of things, you know, so that's and
You can't under play the role of sexual attraction and that's a mysterious thing. And so that's, that's crucial as far as I'm concerned. And, and can't be some
question about that. Jordan. Dr. Peterson. So, you mentioned pornography, and we do countless pieces of content, to be able to help young men overcome that issue, and provide a tons of resources to help them support them. So, what I've noticed that happens sometimes is because of years of watching pornography.
The men's sexual attraction becomes warped. And so what how can a man whose sexual attraction to women? Has become warped to the extreme ends due to so much consumption of pornography. How can that man? Go back to now being attracted to you. No more. Natural-looking. Women are more women that could be around their, you know, their lives set of the
progenitor deprivation is helpful, you know, I mean, so I think
It's reasonable to assume that.
There's a novelty Edge in pornography, like there is in so many quasi addictive.
Phenomenon. And so it has to become because it because novelty is a sexual kick. It has to stay novel and that means that over time it's going to become more extreme. So that's not good. Well, so how do you re sensitize yourself in some sense while you stop you stop and then hopefully you recover.
And then you deprive yourself of that outlet. Let's say and you might say, well, you know is, is that absolutely necessary and maybe there's nothing wrong with pornography. It's like, well, I don't know, man, like, have you ever really met a guy who is proud of that? But you know what, I mean? That makes him feel like I'm the guy man, you know, I'm watching pornography and getting off its like, what a man. I don't believe anyone feels that, and to Me, Maybe I'm Wrong.
And to me that's an indication that yeah, we know, no, it's pretty cheap. It's cheap. It's easy. And, you know, I say that knowing that I believe the research evidence shows that if you introduce pornography into a community that rates of sexual crime committed by men upon women, actually declined. So there is perhaps some utility in the outlet. But you know, that's a unit dimensional analysis and doesn't take into account.
All the other effects of pornography. So including the ones you described and I think that those are real, it makes sense that they're real, you know, because it's super satiation and, and it's it and it's a non-trivial technological problem. You know, it's now possible for young men to look at more beautiful nude women in one day than any man has ever seen, you know, prior to 10 years ago. 20 years ago, that any man in history had ever seen, that's not nothing. That's something.
To think that doesn't do anything to you. It's like know that that's
That likely does something to you. So don't substitute the the false for the real and and don't underestimate the utility of deprivation. You know you what what do we need to drive us forward to have the adventure of our life, you know, well someday some deprivation, that's for sure, that that heightens desire and drive and maybe you need that. You're afraid to
Approach a woman. Well, you remove part of your drive with pornography. And so now you don't have that sexual urge to overcome that anxiety. And so you stay timid for your entire life, you know, maybe not but but maybe
So honesty the attraction is there anything else that you feel is those extremely important that you know, this is things that you may need to be focusing on for picking a long-term
partner.
I'd have to particularize it probably after that. Knowing her family, I think is useful and my wife has a very, very solid family and that's been that's been a good thing. So I'm fortunate in that. So how do you think to you know, you're going to have kids? Is this a person that you think would be a good mother and an enjoyable partner have someone you can have some fun with
And Inspire with a bit too, you know, so that's probably
dr. Peterson. Thank you so much. All the wisdom that you've been sharing has been been so powerful. I mean, I just been sitting here. Listening learning gleaning from you just gaining so much information and I hope that so many men can be able to get this and women as well. And so what would be a closed message? You want to leave the men and women who are watching this episode, who are
Trying to build lives of purpose. We're trying to build lives of meaning, who want to leave a legacy on this Earth. Will your closing message to those
individuals?
Don't underestimate the whole your absence would leave.
Mmm.
You know, each of us were remarkable creatures and we have something to offer to the world, to our people. We love to the World At Large. It's our responsibility to make that manifest and
We move a little farther away from Paradise every time that doesn't happen. Really, really.
So how do you know this is serious business and we're very technologically powerful. Now we can't afford too much psychological immaturity.
That's powerful.
Dr. Peterson. Thank you. Thank you so much for those words, guys, please man. You ready know how we get down at the roommates. Be sure to reach out to dr. Peace and let him know what about the podcast set out to you guys, man. This episode is so much powerful, man. You probably got to, I know, I gotta watch this multiple times because there's probably so many things that I missed the first time around. And there's so many amazing resources here at the roommates to help men and women.
Come to the best version of yourself. So please take advantage of it as well as take advantage of Jordan, Peterson's Book, 12 rules for life. And also Beyond order 12 more rules for life because there's so much wisdom that if Jordan was a share, all day, we would spend years and months and he was able to compact it all together into two amazing pieces of work. So if you have not gotten those two books, be sure to get those books.
Dr. Peterson words cannot describe how grateful I am for this conversation. I'm Ricky puree in Jewett.
I go to my YouTube site. That's probably the best thing to do.
So just type in Jordan, be Peterson or Jordan Pederson and YouTube, and you'll find it pretty quick. So
thanks a lot. I want to send you a message about the podcast about how much impacted their life work. Is a you prefer email Twitter, your website. I read YouTube comments. Okay, cool. Sounds good. So that's the best way
because I do read them. So awesome. Really good talking to you. I really appreciate the invitation. I am the conversation and like best of luck with what you're doing and your continued.
Endeavors, it's like good work, man, and keep it up.
Thank you. So guys. You ready know how to get? We get down. Sent to dr. Peterson and mess. Let him know. What about the Tai. Chi set out to you. My name is David and I'm joined by dark. Nice. Got a roommate and have a great day.
