What's up, welcome to the show. It's Chase and guess who I'm with today. I mean, I don't have to guess what I'm gonna tell you because his name is mr. Kevin Rose. Now. If you've been internet fan for some time, then you know Kevin Rose because he is a multi-faceted entrepreneur started in exited several companies been an investor at Google Ventures and overall an
Being Human longtime friend, I cannot say
enough good things about Kevin and I will confess that we have flipped the script. That's why we got some good feedback that every once in a while when I put a little show on here where I've been on somebody else's show that you'll like it. So I'm occasionally grabbing some some of those episodes for my friends where I'm have appeared on their shows and that's what this is today. It's Kevin interviewing yours truly and of course one of the hot topics
Is my new book but you'll be happy to know that we cover a ton of ground and in particular Kevin with all of his wisdom and insight in a technology is also a master at so many things Japanese culture T meditation mindfulness his his knowledge and wisdom truly knows very few boundaries is an inspiration to me and having done a bunch of podcasts for the book.
Honestly, this is one of my personal favorites and it's a personal favorite because in part the questions that Kevin asks also, it's just it's raw. It's real and Kevin. I've been friends for a long time. So I'm able to sort of go places that I might not have with other interviewees. So I hope you enjoy the show. Imma get out of the way. I want to say a big thank you for for Kevin sharing this allowing us to syndicated here for you for those of you who aren't subscribed to Kevin.
Show until now I know you're going to listen this you're going to run right over and subscribe. Please give him a shout out on the internet. He's at Kevin Rose and I think he might be some other things but you're going to look it up, you know how to use the internet Kevin Rose a force of Nature and I'm grateful to be on a show of and get out of the way
so that you all can listen to us talk about creativity entrepreneurship and building the living and the life that you live for yourself. So let's get into the show.
We've done stuff together in the
past but it's awesome to sit down actually talk about something that you're creating and launching and you know, you've got a new book, which is crazy. I'm scared to write a book. I think you should be having just come through it. This is why this is on audio right and not on video because I look like I just wrote a book. I just feel like I got run over by a truck. But no, it's a treat to be on your show longtime listener first-time caller. Yeah, and of course you've been on my show.
On CreativeLive when we get to talk about a lot of the amazing stuff you've built and back with all the watch stuff and of course the mindfulness apps and fasting apps you've been just continuing to crank it out. So it is it's fun to be on your show. And of course, you're always welcome my mind, you know that we never need to talk about your next thing. I know I appreciate that. That's awesome. You know, when I first heard about you, I can't remember who it was that told me. Maybe it was David Prager someone like that that had said that
that you had this podcast and it was really cool and it was like a are you were doing this video and it was like really well shot and then I tuned in and I was like, holy crap. Like this guy has a put together like you were executing at such a high level. Do you see this book is kind of a way to really pull that creativity out of people. So the show is to me has been the Ten Ten Years running. It was launched before CreativeLive, which we can we can add context for people who are new to my university.
Start the beginning at the beginning it can add that in a moment. But I think the book that I wrote. It does a hundred percent address like how to stand out in the marketplace and how to you know, because I think you can't both stand out and fit in and that's a weird thing about I think about creativity and about like as humans were social animals sort of risky to stand out and you want to stand out but not too much and I think the context of the show it was really radically different. I think it was probably Ferris who
Originally. Oh, maybe you know, it was preggers because you guys were doing revision3. Yeah, we're gonna be yeah, so I had a very things one of the first shows on the internet with that was audio and video and live all the same time that was 10 years ago, but I think if you know, if we use that as a jumping off point of just continuing to create and put new and interesting things out in the world we go back to the premise of the book is pretty simple, like books called creative calling and it's sort of has a three-point argument to it, which is super basic and then of course we do,
Go in depth on a lot of in the first and I think most important one is that there's creativity inside of every person. So right now you might be, you know, your software engineer and you may or may not acknowledge that that is wildly creative writing and singing creative because you've got math and you're putting together a vision and whatnot. But there's a lot of folks. I think people who are at already identify with as a Creator. This book is written for you because this is about you and your people and it's been a part of your belief system and the way you see the world
old but it's also for this there's a whole universe of what I call Creative curious people and I ask you to believe fundamentally that creativity is inside of every person and all you have to do I just go to any first grade classroom who wants to come to the front of the room and draw me a picture how many hands go up every hand goes up because you're like hopping on themselves to come to the front and then if you ask that same question of a sixth grade classroom half as many and then certainly in high school half as many again and and so creativity is something that sort of trained out of us rather than
And something that is given to some and not to others. So creativity is inside of every person that's point. One point two is that creativity is a muscle. It's a habit not a skill. It's a way of operating and it isn't a thing that some people have it and some people don't I think Maya Angelou said it best. It's a infinite resource the more you use the more you get and if you put it in the context of a muscle, right? It's totally obvious that when you use something more it gets stronger and so of course
By extension if you believe one everyone's creative you believe to and I don't think these are huge leaps right thing too. Is that okay? If you're more creative on a regular basis, then you're going to have more creativity at your disposal and Thing 3 is here's the kicker right if we're creating on a regular basis and small daily ways, whether that's what you do at work writing code or you come home. You make your family a beautiful meal. I think the way you travel Kevin is beautiful you travel really intentionally and you you know dying and
Assume a certain way and seek travel and and so it's these small daily creative acts done with intention. It's the same exact muscle as the muscle we use to create our life and it's just creativity at a different scale. So yes, this book will help you uncork your creative talents and connect with the really important part of you, but it's also about crafting The Arc of your life that is where this book is radically different than other books about creativity and that's honestly
Why I wrote it I've read I think most all the books but being a lifelong Creator or identifying as one myself I've read all and I love them. I got a lot out of them, but they were very pretentious and it was mostly like, you know creativity is you have to wears a beret and move to Perry and you have to get a new set of friends and surround yourself with your beer. Perfect art and your and I'm trying it's anything but that I'm trying to make this so practical and a much bigger picture around creativity creativity is not art creativity is the combining of
Any new thing to form something new and useful and that's why it qualifies. If you're making a cake making a meal building a business wildly creative so we can expand the definition of creativity and show that it's this thing that differentiates us from every other species on the planet. I think we've got something here in a perfect world when someone picks up this book at the bookstore and they're like, okay. This looks interesting to me. They take it home. They read it. What are they looking to get out of it? Like what do you want to have happen? So
So, you know five years from now people look back and say like this really moved acts in a certain way. I do believe it serves multiple purposes. But the key thing to take away from is that you have agency over your life. We live in a culture where there's so many shoulds right. There's you should do this you like that you need to go to the school. You need to have this job make this much money to get these kinds of grades live this life and doe don't mess it up. Don't take risks or joerger to be really careful with the risks and and
Is a sage path and then over there would be risky path and I'm trying to boil all that down and say look our creative capacity is the most powerful attribute that we have is humans like that and maybe love but I'm putting creativity on the fundamental level the same as like exercise and nutrition. It's not just a nice to have it's a requirement. So if you read this book, the goal will be that you will you acknowledge that you are a creating machine and that's basically the a superpower
Or that we have and if you can learn to harness that superpower, it's in that way that anything is possible and way that I discovered this is deconstructing my own life and you know through my podcast and long-running show that we talked about at the open the open of this conversation and having talked to hundreds and hundreds of the world's top performers creators entrepreneurs filmmakers design, all that Common Thread is that they are aware that they are creative. They put that creativity to use in small ways and it's that has
Actually the lens that they use to build these amazing lives. And if you can think of it in those terms thus all the same stuff is available to everyone. We've just been sold alive that you're either creative or you're not and that you have to do this long list of things in order to be sort of socially acceptable. So it's not about getting a different set of friends. It's not about wearing a beret. It's not about starting from scratch this oil painting practice just so you can check the box of being creative all of that would
Help but it's not about any of those things. It's you know, essentially life isn't about finding fulfillment and success is about creating it. Yeah, I'm curious what that process looks like because that, you know being technology investor and you know got entrepreneur iPad and I'm sure you have as well just a ton of people come up to you and hit you ideas and I would say that when I talk to people about, you know their ideas and what they want to build.
Hold it I think there's a few different camps one is definitely I have this idea but I'm looking for validation and I have been beaten down enough to where I just want to take the safe path because I know being a dentist is always going to pay me x amount of dollars per year and that's what my dad told me to do. And that's what they choose even though. They have in the back of their mind these hopes and dreams and you know, wouldn't it be great if but they never kind of execute on it and then
one step further down the chain is that person that that you mentioned that just believes there is no creativity in me. I'm just not that type of person. I have other skills, you know, I'm curious if you started the very bottom someone that just absolutely believes in his listening to this as II don't have a creative bone in my body. Like how do you start to build that muscle that you're talking about? Sadly? It's a pretty popular position. I was with someone last night like yeah, you know, I'm the business side. I'm like dude. I've been building businesses for the last like 20 years and it's the most
Of stuff I've ever done because there's it's so Dynamic. There's so many inputs and you're making decisions all the time to do this or to that or put those to do these two things together and make a product that does this and not that like all those are wildly creative decisions. And so my you know, my first employee to them is like first of all, let's redefine creativity because if you ask that person and I've done this thousands of times around the world everyone equates creativity to just start and to be clear
her art is a really popular and well-known subset of creativity. And I don't think it's that big of a leap to start saying. Oh no, I guess I do see how you know me crafting a business is really creative or especially like writing code. Like I'm an engineer, I build things like, okay, like building is wildly creative a few just like walked up and started hammering things together and you thought you'd end up with a house. You're mistaken, right? There's a plan. There's an approach is a vision in you're executing against that so too for that person.
I would say, you know redefine creativity and then I would tell probably tell that person the story of my mom and my mom at about 65 years old when the iPhone first came out. I had launched an app that went on to become a pop of the year was the first photo app that allows you to take a picture add a cool effect and then share it to social networks year and a half or so before Instagram and it wasn't just like a good concept. It was the app of the year in the Apple App Store and I put it in her hand with a
the iPhone 1 or iPhone to maybe and my mom is a person who had not identified as creative. She was the business person she you know was very practically oriented to use common vernacular and was totally cool with that. But like yeah, it's fine and with no extra time she didn't have to completely blow her schedule didn't have to move to Paris or start oil painting or any of the cliches. I just said, you know, start start, you know, taking some pictures here's how you do it. And so she started taking pictures on her walk. She
Walk every day at lunch when she was at work and she started sharing those with your friends. And in matter of weeks not months not years and a matter of weeks. She started being recognized as like the most creative friend and her friend group and I here's the kicker is that I watched her. I watched it change how she approached cooking because she loves to cook. I watched how it affected that I watched it change how she dressed how she carried herself in the world. Even her travel. She went from just being someone who
to take the same vacations to now he's starting to go to a like China and Africa and so I watched it but fell like overnight relative to a 65 year old person's life just add a layer of richness and it was literally through realizing that wait a minute. I'm creating these pictures every day. This hole is whole life that I have is now my canvas and if you can get someone who doesn't believe to just and those are not huge leaps right? I'm not asking you to quit your day job or sacrifice anything Li I'm suggesting that just by adding
a
Practice of cooking a meal that you probably have the same way. You've cooked it every year for the for every day for the past, you know, ten years or whatever. You got your get your your old spaghetti sauce recipe. Well try changing it up. And when you do that changeup in Ogunquit, this was good. This was Betty start performing experiments and I know from personal experience in talking to thousands of people that you start to approach it differently in an affects other areas of your life. So to that person I would give him that advice. I know that you know you and I have tried.
So many different things and in life and I think that it's it is just really adds this like this spice and excitement. Even when it's something you fail at it just for me. It's it feels so good to be experimenting with something new. And so that's why I'm always trying out different things because I know that in the end, you know lifelong learning is really kind of where it's at. It. It just enriches so many different aspects of Life a hundred percent a great view also test on something just a second ago.
Like, you know the sort of choosing this over something else and it's to me it's fascinating everybody. Like we've all had this these inputs that say, oh we shouldn't do that that's really risky and a lot of people especially, you know in your audience identify an entrepreneurial universe and it sounds risky to start a new business and to do all these things. And of course what's extra hard is when these inputs come from people you love people you trust your parents your
Mentor your peers your career counselor, if you're younger you like and they all saying. Oh gosh, I wouldn't do that. That's risky. You want to try and make it as a musician? Oh my gosh, why would you do that? If you could just take this safe path and I put that in air quotes the safe path over here. Everything is going to be much better. But here's the thing that there's actually there's two things one. The people are giving you advice and they love you very much. But what they're trying to do in a very loving caring way is they just want you to be safe.
And the irony is that then telling you or giving you this feedback to do the quote safe thing is arguably the riskiest thing that they could be telling you to do and that you could do because following the dreams that somebody else have for you to play it safe. And this one precious life that is dead that's terrifying to me because just fast-forward to the number one concern of the dying which is that they live the life that other people wanted rather than the one that they chose for themselves.
And to me that it's a powerful combination when you start dislike, of course your parents who say this your career counselor will have you do this in this in this but you know, you know, that's I think .1 .2 on that same topic is so many of the things that used to be loaded with risk now have like all kinds of downside protection. There's that old myth that of the starving artist or there's the myth of the entrepreneur who goes all-in bet it all on red takes the second mortgage and I'm not advocating any of
In fact, if you talk to any really successful entrepreneur, but you know Richard Branson's an investor in Creative live a mentor. He's like, he's always protecting the downside. He's always betting what you can where they can afford to bet and it's sort of robust to this like all in mentality because you can it's just like iteration and product development, you know, it's the people who end up being successful. They Tinker they play they invent and you know, what a hundred percent of the time they start small they start with
One thing if you want to you want to you're an engineer and you want to own a cafe someday, and this is crazy dream that all your friends are talking. You don't have to like stop being an engineer go take out a lease down the corner there in Portland and start doing stuff. You have no idea how to do the first step. We start baking some scones see how you like it. Why don't you start some like writing some single origin Blue Bottle Coffee and trying to, you know, create the best cup of coffee you can and have
Friends over for brunch every Sunday morning for the you know, all your friends and do that for for every Sunday for 10 Sundays and has a feel and then like that's how the best idea is in life come. I have a big Topic in the book about action over intellect. You're not going to think your way out of any of that. You have two Targets are taking action and I just recommend you do it in small ways that bring joy and Delight right and they either like you to your point though. They also give you a sense of what you're getting into.
Two before you jump in both feet, you know, like I was actually having this conversation. It's crazy just yesterday with my sister. She is really into the service called Poshmark where it's a clothing like used clothing swapping service for people and she loves like going out and finding his clothes and like recycling them and making sure they get you know, II hunting third homes and she was like, I'm just going to open my own shop my own shop and Portland and I'm gonna you know, just focus on
On like designer type, you know recycled close. I was like here that's awesome. But like do you know that like have you wanted to go work at a shop for a cup few months, you know, like see what how you like that before you actually jump in and go all in on something that that big and I think that's you know, just like this idea of just testing the waters in a very controlled and measurable ways as a really smart one and you learn so much in the process right to me. That's that's a really important and
Crystal Clear way of applying the desire that you have to venture out with the sort of safety of experimentation and you know mitigating risk like that. That's the super exciting that that exists and what you know in part why I wrote the book is because that is not at all the cultural narrative, right you think entrepreneur and how many times you've been interviewed a million times by Patek, press and daytime television now like Kevin Rose.
Risk-taker bets it all and goes all in and you're like now I I did a prototype now. I got my you know, my mailing list of 50,000 people playing around with it. It cost me a hundred grand or 50 Grand or 20 grand and I'm learning. This is not the dominant cultural narrative. The one that's your sisters buying into is largely not how it's done, right? Yeah, so true. I'm really curious because you got me excited when you mention that like building.
Muscle that creative muscle and that more tinkering more and creativity leads to kind of bigger creative outcomes. Like what do people have to do. I mean I get to go and do and make us go in for the first time but like are there other very specific things that you'd recommend people do creatively to kind of get the get the juices flowing if that is even a thing this to me is also like it's a joy to talk about why I get charged up around this.
Everybody and this is why the book is called creative calling. It's not like a calling back to your pipe cleaners and popsicle sticks from you know, third grade. Everybody has something that they have this calling and it's usually and this is true for everybody. This is the presents like the thing that no one's talking about the elephant in the room. We all have what we're doing and then we all have this other thing. This is a dream that we were taught to park or ignore or parse out or hot.
Shameful of and yes, you know to me the that, you know part of the ethos of the book and I think it's available to everyone is it doesn't actually have to be that you don't have to to recede away from that thing and bury it. In fact as soon as you start to listen to it and tap into it in the way that we were talking about with your sister or the cafe owner like something happens when you started to brush up against your your dream may be that you haven't told
old anyone in even in just the most casual way something cool happens and it Life Starts to happen for you rather than to you. You have energy in a way that you didn't before it's so true. Yeah, that is a massive point. When I work on a project that I'm really passionate about and it's something that you know is not my day to day but it's like a little thing on the side that I just really want to all of a sudden this energy just appears out of nowhere and those nights and weekends that you're working. They don't feel like work, you know there.
Phil would fill with energy again. This is the cool thing that and why the book had to be written and everything is hiding in plain sight. There's no this is not about like having to do a 180 on everything in your life. This is about everything is right in front of you and we're really going to do is we're just going to like lift up the lift up the covers and look at and say, oh my God, you're right there and everyone to you know, remember your question was like what can people do
and what I'm asking you to do is look at that thing and acknowledge it and you don't have to you know, again go all-in do all that stuff. But I want what I want you to do and is the metaphor I use if that's your calling and you can sometimes it's never like Hey Kevin we need you to come over here and do the thing you want to do. It's like what if we did this what if I actually had the courage or because I you know, I've got three kids and a mortgage and I got all these these, you know,
Needs and priorities above it. But let's just put that, you know suspend that for just a second and what if I could do that thing what I'm trying to do you to listen to that thing and then start walking towards it as soon as you start walking towards it you're on the metaphor using the book is in this path. And then that's the energy that you just described feeling. And again, I've spent time with literally right across creative life example millions of creators, and I know this to be true this is true for me and it's been true for millions of other people that this is you just start getting
getting jazzed and it doesn't mean that you have to do anything else with your life. You just start paying attention this thing moving towards it in ways that you can do and when you start to feel that and Life Starts to happen for you rather than to you not only does that, you know, do you make progress on toward that thing that you toward which you Aspire maybe even still just a Whimsical Little Dream in the in the corner, but it's the combination of the energy that you feel you see that just dabbling with
Is possible and here's a sort of a macro the way I like to look at. This is everybody wants a map. Right we a map is safe. It tells us how to get to where we're going and a map if you just deconstruct what a map is for second. It's like or in this life Journey. It's like red dot you are here - - - - - - - here's a go over the river and through the woods and across the valley here and then I get to my destination over here. And that's a red X and we all want to map but the reality is that we're sold a map.
If you go to this school for this college get these grades you can have this job and we're prescribed as dotted line and how often is that dotted line stay true in those situations virtually never right? So we're sold this we're sold the map. But all we ever really have in life is a compass right? Well and the problem is that when you have your eye on the X you're thinking that at some future point in time, I will be happy. I'll be satisfied.
Be fulfilled I will make it and you're not enjoying the journey at that point and all we really have is the journey. It's such it's such a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Like you're not enjoying the rainbow you just looking for the gold, you know, it's a really a horrible thing because then you wake up and especially if the the pot of gold moves or you know, it's like then you're just devastated and you missed out on all of life. Not only is that true, but it actually gets in the
The way of and this might be an obvious sort of what precipitates in that. It also gets in the way of experiencing the joy and the connection and all those things that we're all seeking in life right now, especially because information is moving so quickly and all the other trappings of modern culture, but it alienates us and the stuff that I'm talking about. It grounds us. It gives us meaning and it connects us to our lives and the lives of people around us who are doing the things that we want to be doing and you
Closer to those things and it feels better. So it's sort of this like it's a little bit of a medicine and the cool thing is this is actual progress. If you just reinstate the map analogy here for a second. We're sold a map that doesn't actually exist when we really all have is a compass just so happens. The compass is an out there anywhere the compasses inside and there's this that's that calling metaphor. It's like when you can start to listen to what your true north is, and then when you take action against that true north sure.
New things come up because it's you know, a compass in real life is like, okay, I got to go over that hill and you get to the top of the hill and you look down you like. Oh my God, there's a lake there, you know like I love swimming. Oh my God who knew or I can go around this Lake. It's really easy and small and there's this Valley over here. So you start to fall and end. There's this sort of trust that you develop in the process of following your intuition. That is hugely material. So again, your macro question, whatever five minutes ago was like what do people do start?
In toward these things have no expectations. But watch your joy Factor go up your engagement your connection with yourself. And this this thing that you always had inside of you we all have these things that we're supposed to be doing that we're not doing and we've all got a long list of reasons why I'm saying Park some of those reasons explored in small lightweight ways and if I'm wrong return the book, I'll buy it back.
Because I don't have any experience with people saying nap never found it because it's the act of doing and exploring where you actually come across these things and regardless if your dream is to do what your sister was projecting or to the cafe thing. We were talking about our building a business.
You learn something in the process and you realize when you get to a certain Crossroad like I don't have any joy for this anymore. But what did I learn in the process is that I can walk toward anything learn grow connect and the cool thing is that this is what the people that you look up to and doesn't have to be somebody famous on the Internet or Richard Branson or Tim Ferriss or brene brown. It can be your neighbor whose lives in amazing integrity and has amazing Garden or whatever.
You start to know that oh, that's all they're doing you like. I wish I could do that because they are so passionate in their lives as full of joy and witness and connection and we've all got our own shit but to be crystal clear the people in life who actually we aspire to or engage us or in spin motivate us or from whom we learn this is a deconstructed at this is what they're doing. Well, can you give me some examples like what are some real like tactical examples in the book that
Give people that they can walk away with our they can try right now. Well a couple different things in the book. It does like the It sets of pretty high bar for its ambitious in the sense that it paints is really broad expanded view of creativity and how it Powers everything we do and then it does get super super tactical down to things that are known creativity stimulate. These are habits, right? These are things that are known creativity stimulators and known things that zap our creativity and without going too far in the weeds there. I think it's really important to establish that this
I've organized the book in into four parts and it's the system I've and it's called idea ideea and it just so happens that in deconstructed my own successes and looking at the failures and doing the same thing with other people which is essentially what you're asking is this is both a process for any creative project like building an app or baking a cake or building a business, but it's also a roadmap for our lives and again,
Remember from earlier that connection I believe between those two things and and so the acronym goes like this I is for imagine all the most successful and fulfilled. I would add creators and entrepreneurs of our time. They have learned how to take these constraints that culture places on us for what's possible with the product or your life or your business or whatever. Oh I can't do this because X y&z. These people have managed to escape that thinking and to me this is essential for
Creating the vision for anything. So I walked through a handful of ways that you can break down some of these typical trappings and things that keep us thinking small. So imagine what's possible. The next thing that people do is that are successful as they design a set of habits and practices that are going to get them there. Like if you want to write a book, I don't know anybody who knows any other any way other than doing it is just sitting down and doing the work but then you say well, how do I do it? I got the kid that got to do this look at if you wrote for 30 to 45 minutes or 30 minutes to an hour.
Be morning you get up just earlier than then you normally do even before the kids get up and this is not something you need to sustain forever. But if you just did this for a year and you wrote 500 Words a day for a year that is a lot of words. So this is true for anything and if you're trying to get stronger in the gym or get it become a better writer or you know build that Cafe you're designing a set of behaviors that if you did these behaviors you would either achieve your goal or get closer to it. The third one is your just executing.
Against that Vision so it feels a little bit boring but we all have these ways of avoiding doing the work. So there's a bunch of tactical things that I got in the book about how to do that. And the last one to me is totally critical way overlooked for the success of any project or I'll even say this dare I say it any life is the acronym the letter here I have is a and that's amplify and what amplify really stands for is community.
And we are social animals. Okay doesn't matter if you identify as an introvert or an extrovert or all of those things, you are a social animal and if a baby for example is not held after they're born for some meaningful amount of time. If there isn't a human connection baby will die because we're connected isolation. The science is pretty clear is actually more harmful to our health than smoking. So when you start to think that we're these social
And that Community matters I can then get you to think about. Okay. Well if I'm going to do anything right anything if it's from a presentation at work to that Cafe, I need people I need people to help me. I need people to believe in me. I need people to buy my stuff and when you think about it as this abstract thing it sounds hard, but I'm trying to get you to think about it in a really concrete way, which is around Community. There's two ways to handle.
The community one is that you can join existing communities in there. If you that's the cool thing about the internet right? Go back to Kevin Kelly's post a thousand true fans. You don't need to have a million followers on any social platform. You need a handful of people who care deeply about your work. There are communities out there that you can join if you are a watch freak like somebody I know and you love watches how many forms and communities and what not are there for watches Kevin? Yeah. I mean there's there's dozens of ones with thousands tens of thousands of people.
Crazy, yeah, and so by joining these communities what you're really doing is learning you're spending time around like-minded people. And if you're the average of The Five People You spend the most time with and you want to pursue this you've listened to your calling you start running at it, then it's so critical for the success of anything and the other type of community if there's ones that are out there that you can join is the one that you start to build around your own Vision your own dream your own work.
And it's through this combination this sort of alchemy of community, which is not really well understood but that I'd go deep into in the book you start to basically create a fertile ground for you to grow and learn and for a place for your ideas to land which this is the again the missing piece of any equation. Yeah, that's what creates both success because there's a people a group of people ready to get your work and the thing we're all missing which is fulfillment and connection.
Yeah, like I said that this is huge finding finding your audience really. Like how did you first get started? And how did you find a place for you know when you were thinking about first and launching your very first project like what was your process there? I was on a path that everybody else wanted for me. I was okay and where I came from I came from a lower middle class family and it's like hey if you're smart and hardworking you should be a doctor or a lawyer or whatever. So I pursued that because and then you know, we all do these.
Things this is part of the that path part. I was getting at earlier and I got a hundred thousand dollars in student debt 10 years off track doing everything that everybody else wanted when I finally was real to myself and it came out through a bunch of trauma. I had someone very close to me died. I was given his cameras and I became enamored with and passionate about photography, but it's the directly in contrast with everything else. Everybody else wanted for me. I stepped onto that path and started pursuing it and all of the same things that I just
About it or we talked about with energy and fulfillment and connection all that sort of sort of manifesting. And when as we already covered when you're pursuing something that you love at first as a hobby and then as it gets it may or may not get more serious just to be crystal clear. I didn't know enough about photography to know that the way you were supposed to do. It was what you want to photography school and then you worked for someone else who was a pro and you assisted for them. And that's how you
You know you cut your teeth in the biz, and that's how you quote paid your dues and I was so ignorant about photography that I didn't know how to do or didn't even know that that was a thing and I was just taking pictures because I loved it and you know what? I managed to make it work in my own weird quirky way. I started getting hired and paid to do the work that people who had way more experience than I did because I stepped on that path and was so passionate might learning was just extra fast and
This is the thing that people aren't told is that there's a million past nowadays to get in there used to just be a series of Gatekeepers. And you had to do A and B and C in order to be hang it in a gallery or a museum or you had to do a b and c and if you wanted to be to have your startup funded and how many ways are there is to get startups funded nowadays was a zillion and you know, you may be no need to get funding but there's crowdsourcing there's you know, there's 50 different options that exist today that didn't before and the cool thing is
About there being a thousand paths and about there not being Gatekeepers relative to how that was. Ten years ago when I like did this really imperfect really unplanned really imprecise starting to take action The Next Step became clear to me and the next step became clear after that and pretty soon. I was doing the thing that I had aspired to be doing just a couple of years before with really with no formal training and of course
The numbers going crazy like how the hell did you get here? How are you getting paid to travel the world with your friends and shoot them skiing and snowboarding for magazines. But what happens is it doesn't matter. Nobody cares how you got there when you're there you're just there and to me that is the sort of the Trojan Horse of this book is the distance between where you are right now and where you want to be it might be far, you know, maybe, you know go back to the 10,000 hours or I want to be an
And computer programmer. I want to fill in the blank. It may be 10,000 hours away or five years or whatever and for me, it was a couple of your journey, but you know how many decisions away it was like, too.
And that's incredibly empowering to me. It's like sure it's going to be a five year Journey. But all I have to change in my life are two things one may be a willingness to be slightly uncomfortable and have some hard conversations with people that I love and to start putting some of these things these very basic things into practice like carving time out every day to do the thing that you love maybe it starts out as a side hustle. And if your two decisions away from a completely different life, that is a whole new ballgame.
Mm, and that's basically how I became at first, you know, a photographer and the cool thing happens when you actually do this one time and you know, this may be better than anybody. I know Kevin like you've had this amazing transformative super Dynamic career, but when you do it, once what happens you're like, huh? Not only did I like how that worked. But I bet I can do it again and the same is true with me. Like I figured out I mastered photography and you know became one of the top commercial
As in the world and be like wait a minute if I can figure that out from scratch what else could I do? And so yeah for me. I started tapping into entrepreneurship and if you look at your Arc, like you've Creator designer Creator entrepreneur, oh my gosh. Now I'm an investor now. I'm back to being an entrepreneur. And now I'm you know, I'm passionate about tea and coffee and you know, you just like this is the richness that I'm talking about, which is as soon as you do it. Once you listen to that little voice inside your head you run at it. This is yours.
The perfect example Kevin of it uncorking your life and it was just through small creative acts over and over that you've done it. Yeah, and I think it's a combination of not only being able to kind of run at it but also realizing not seeing your stumbles as that are really these things that weigh on you but really just understanding that that is the process that every single person goes through and it's just acknowledging that you've learned something new. Yeah, and
I would say that like if I look back on my career of all the things that I've I've made in launched like most of them don't exist today, I would say probably 70% of the stuff I've ever built is like, you know, in terms of like products that people use don't exist and they're not out there. So I've failed more than I have succeeded but you know, I've always learned something and it's always kind of I've used that as fuel to say well now I have that knowledge and that is just makes me a stronger.
Her person with a larger kind of tool chest and and depth of knowledge so that I won't make the same mistake going forward and if you can frame it like that in your brain, then you know, you can go on to do anything you want it if there's no fear anymore, which I think is is huge for me. It's always been about understanding. What do you as a person really need out of life to feel content and be happy and I don't need to live in
Kind of extravagant house. I mean, I'm very fortunate and that I'm living where I want to today and I in and those things have worked out but that's not always been the case. And so I know that for me to be happy really what it comes down to is having a solid relationship with my my wife. I think that's very very important. But I really respect the hell out of cultures that can understand that you don't need to tie happiness to extreme wealth
'The it's one of the reasons why I love Japan so much, you know, I obviously it was there not too long ago and I went to this this coffee shop where this gentleman is 70s has been aging coffee beans for 40 30 40 years now and he does this really kind of awesome like funky age coffee that you would have never tried unless you've been there and you know, it's six seven dollars a cup and he has 10 seats in the restaurant are in the in the little coffee bar and a little Rose.
Are and you know, I would say US Dollars wise I mean the cafe probably pulls in three four hundred dollars a day, you know, and the guy is completely content and takes 10 to 15 minutes to pour do a pour-over for a single cup of coffee and it is what he is known for and respected for and it's like that. It's so amazing that people can come together and say I appreciate you for this act this skill this thing.
that you have done the only you do in this unique special way and that as a person you can feel content with that and go to bed and you're not living a luxurious life, but you are fulfilling kind of your dreams and I wish that we could get to a place where it is about fulfilling your dreams and not so much about am I going to have that billion dollar exit or IPO or whatever it may be because it seems that most people aren't going to ever get there and and and if that
Is what you have in mind that is going to make you happy you're missing out on that. The day-to-day fulfillment that is life. I thoroughly aligned with what you talked about and I think to me that it's so let's go back to that point that I made earlier about the when people on their deathbed the number one attribute the number one thing that I want to concerned fear the sadness for people who are dying is that they took too many inputs from all those other sources.
That you just talked about and then if you can think about that and think about this list of shoulds we should do all these things or the billion-dollar acts that are what's been celebrated, you know, the the IPO versus the cup of coffee and in Japan it seems so obvious that a very valuable worthwhile way to spend time is to learn to channel what you actually mean what you actually want out of this life. Not in a only in a selfish.
Way but in a way of like putting your oxygen mask on before assisting other passengers sort of way that you just have so much more opportunity. And so why then are we not taught to think like this to walk like this to talk like this and we don't have to sort of deconstruct popular culture to know that that's not going away anytime soon, right the list of shoulds and why you ought to do this and must do that and could never do that. That would be far too risky if you had kids kind of universe.
And if you can learn to learn to tune those things out and a tune to that inner calling that you want that we all have to me. It's like that uncorks the richest of life and like there's a side benefit to when you actually do that and just look at the way that you look at that man in Japan right now when you do these things and when you are sort of courageous and brave and not I'm not talking doing this in a haphazard like unthoughtful way, but when you do it in a
For way what happens people respect the hell out of that people want to help you people show up and this combination of sort of like this flywheel you start to have more energy other people like right now maybe that guy in Japan is like, you know, I met this guy Kevin he came in every day. He was in a small town he sat here and I poured him cup of coffee after a cup of coffee and you know, there's this like people show up for you and they want to help and to me this sort of
wheel is the secret that I'm this is the Trojan Horse of the book that I'm trying to uncover here. I couched and creativity because I think it's super fundamental to all these things. You have to realize that you can create all this opportunity for yourself that you have agency. But what it really is is about creating it's not like it's not making a masterpiece out of a piece of art to making a masterpiece of your life. Hmm, and I think that that that alone will allow you to
Really kind of stand out in a unique way. If you just kind of embrace your own uniqueness, it's when you try and copy that things don't really work out. Right? What would you say is that you know, one of the things I was pulled into our sorrows your third chapter like you stand out and you also have this like, you know you University chapter as well like what what are the the some of the ways that people can really make sure that what they're going to offer the world what they're going to do you mentioned like
You know making a scone earlier like making a scone, you know, lots of people make scones. What what's the one thing? Like, how can you make sure that your idea and your thing that you're going to launch the world is unique enough and special enough to Warrant, you know pursuing I'm going to use your own medicine against you here how many how many people make coffee? No, I get it. Right that guy's coffee. He had the foresight 40 years ago to think. Hey, I'm going to do something different everybody, you know is really
Being fresh coffee beans. I'm going to save mine and I'm going to save them in a way that they can age. You know that that's crazy, but that wasn't being done. So that was unique and different and now he's you know, you're later laughing but okay cool. And I think the reality is that only you have the combination of your DNA and the set of experiences that you've had and this is why you know in that chapter stand out the the only way that you can truly stand out.
Out is by acknowledging the uniqueness of your own experience and doubling down on that. And this is why I talk to you know, entrepreneurs all the time. And then I call this is a great Market opportunity and that's great and I'm like, okay sure you can chase a great Market opportunity, but I'm telling you if it does not have something that is deeply your deeply connected to when she gets hard and it will I 100 you'll be on the same day it will you are not going to have the stomach to push forward.
It's just another Market opportunity. And so that's right. Again, this is one of the things I think is so cool about this whole world is that the answers we've been sold this idea that the answers are out there and we go the whole first Arc of our life who go looking for those and we're acquiring things and skills and knowledge to find the thing that's out there and at some point there's a flip if you're lucky there's a flip and what you flipped as you like. Oh my God, the answer is were here all along and that is
for example, you understanding the difference through building all these sorts of businesses and connecting with all these entrepreneurs that what makes you happy is actually super simple and it's right here. So, I believe that the ability to go back to your question about how do you stand out like it's by being unapologetically you that you that's how you tap into that thing and that that has everything to do with what was that thing?
We've all had this experience right of where life was working for us. And if you look back if it was whether it was a year or some season of your life or a moment or team you were on or whatever. If you can just deconstruct what was happening there. It's pretty easy to actually go back to that and and you know, if you don't have that or you don't have a really good representation of it, like what are you curious about? Usually those things will get you to the same place your curiosity or those things in your past that used to sort of fire you up and
If you're the fact that this is this is listening to yourself you by pursuing that calling hearing that calling walking that path. That is the way that you become uniquely you and in the process of doing that you stand out not in a not in an egregious like crazy stored away. But in your way whatever that is, you know, whatever that is for you your own set of experiences is the thing that you're
Seeking it's just so bad that we spend so much time walking around seeking all other thing in the answers are right there in front of us hiding in plain sight. Yeah. I love what you said about being unapologetically you I think that I wrote down three things as you were just talking right there being unapologetically you finding the things that you personally are. So passionate about that. It's like you can't stop thinking about it and then to your point. I don't think we've talked about on the show but on and chapter 6
say do your best work just executing at the highest level possible for what you're doing and doing your best work and that is in a kind of commodity driven world that we live in today where Amazon has knockoffs of every single product that's out there people are starting to kind of look for high quality work and people that are still doing at the you know, the old way, you know quote unquote and I think that if you do if you combine those things of having it being uniquely
Yours something you're really passionate about and doing it the highest level like it's pretty hard to fail at that point it is and this is again this let's go back to like cultural assessment is a perfect full circle moments. Go back to cultural assessment of risk. So someone is telling you that doing that thing becoming that, you know, coffee roaster in Japan and doing the thing they're telling you how risky that is, but the Alternatives that they're giving you.
Are the most generic the most average the most right down the middle that exist and let's uncork that just for a second. What is average that is that is literally the sum of all of the things divided by the number of things. It is right down the middle and it is what is expected. It is like that's the opposite of standing out that isn't them with commodification and or commoditization of everything and of course the people who you who
You love and who love you they're recommending these things because they know how to quantify and they they know how to qualify. They can put it in a book. They can say that enough people have not died becoming fill-in-the-blank accountant or project manager or whatever we get prescribed to be from our parents or career counselors. And so that's what they'll recommend for you. Here's the biggest problem that people have not seen coming and you know it and I know it the things where there is a
Perfect blueprint for like becoming a doctor becoming you know an x-ray technician becoming a you know fill in the blank where there is a blueprint for these days. You can start to clone and copy that with software and when you can when there is no creativity present and you can clone and copy it with software you can automate it and when you can automate it the job goes away and that's the reason why x-ray technicians that we're looking for cancer are
as good as AI that looks for cancer looking at the same image and when you those actually are the most risky positions nice days is to go into the old school vanilla thing that can be copied by software precisely. My point just said a lot more beautiful than I could say it that's and you know, so well from your world what kind of Investments are you chasing like you're looking for ones that replace these obvious things and those are the same things that all the people who care deeply about you are steering you toward because they don't know any better.
And they want you to be safe and it is predictable and for the same reasons that it's predictable. It also is a blueprint and then there we are, you know, we're chasing our tail and pretty soon. We're out of a job and I think it's fascinating to look at some jack ma founder of Alibaba, you know, arguably one of the most sort of beat eccentric, you know, heavy lifting companies out there if he gave a speech at the world economic Forum last year and someone asked about what is he teaching his kids is like my kids.
Computers no. No, my kids on computers computers are teaching computers how to do stuff my kids art activity human connection communication.
All things in that think he said it in a more beautiful way than I did. But anything that a machine can't do that's what I'm teaching my kids. Yes. And so the if you look at through the lens of what you just eloquently said, you know layer on the the Jack ma quote from the world economic forum and all of a sudden the thing that you're the things that you were being suggested that by pop culture and we won't put it on any one person whether it's your parents or whatever some pop culture.
It seems suddenly can see that in the lens through which it really is which is I would just maybe put this way it is the riskiest time in human history to play it safe a hundred percent agree. What is the alternative that it is being unapologetically you it is pursuing that calling that you have inside of you that is uniquely you and will help you stand out not in a in a way of like a tall poppy syndrome or whatever, but would you can be unapologetically you listen to what you're truly supposed to be doing.
And it doesn't have to start out. It doesn't have to be an overnight process is not push all the chips and it's not mortgage. This is the house and and go all in burn the boats. This is about just taking a step towards it and then taking another one and then another one and go back to Compass and map world. You've got this Compass you're following your heart and I don't have an experience of the following the heart not working out or if you deconstruct the lives of the most successful people and that's make sure that continually add fulfilled.
to that because the success without fulfillment is for right so the most fulfilled people
I go back to that guy making coffee in Japan so simple but so yeah aligned in Integrity with who he is and trusting that we're not taught to trust it. So I understand why we get in this pickle that were in but that's again the message of the book. There's a bunch of you know, really crisply outline strategies for how to approach that because we aren't really given, you know an approach for this the sounds
Article until you break it down as we have here. Yeah, it's actually it makes a ton of sense of creativity is not this Whimsical naive thing. It's like the most fundamental building block we have is the ability to make decisions that are in line with who we are actually want to be and then manifest those in the world is actually the defense ability of what you're creating is. Well, I mean, it's the reason why that man in Japan would never go out of business if the Starbucks opened up across
The street because he stands out he has the creativity the unique take the, you know, being unapologetically his own person and self. I mean it's it's all there and and that makes him defensible, you know at the end of the day it really is it's this it's choosing these things choosing creativity.
It's ultimately refusing to betray yourself.
And you know, if you think about you just a super quick story. My second grade teacher. I used to be just like any second grade kid did all kinds of stuff. I used to make movies in the summertime and I had a comic strip that I distributed to my second-grade class. He's new magic trick stand-up comedy parent student teacher conference second grade, like, you know the first third of the semester you're in there. I overheard Miss Kelly my second grade teacher tell my mom chase is so much better at sports than he is.
And what do you think that would affect do you think that had on me? Yeah, typically you think like, oh my God, what a crushing a little blow for an eight-year-old kid. You know what I didn't actually give a shit. I was just like oh, but I'm better at sports. Okay. I'm doing that. It's like I've only I only came to realize later after I mentioned, you know that my person very close to me had died and I got his cameras that I was able to kind of come full circle, but that is just one example, and we all have those examples in our
If someone telling us something or and it to be clear, it did provide all the benefits of that my second grade teacher thought I ended up going to college on a soccer scholarship Late July big development team, etc. Etc. But I did deny myself. It also cost me years and Decades of My Life as a young person. It cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans pursuing the path that everybody else wanted for me. There's nothing worse than a business book the Lays it all out perfectly and tells you step a steady steps.
See, I'm not trying to do that my my life and this story in the book and all the other people were imperfect and we've got the warts and all hand grenades in the middle of your life experiences. But ultimately every person that has found this fulfillment they chose to do something about it rather than betray themselves. And for me, it was rather than betray that eight-year-old self that knew that I could do whatever it is that I wanted and get programmed and beaten down over time.
Really woke up one day and said I'm refusing to do this anymore. I love that. I love that. This book is helping our will help more people wake up, you know, it's kind of like I just feel so bad for I know there's so many people out there that are just like had this idea in the back of their head like, oh gosh if I kind of have this passion, but no I could never do that. And I you know, I just I worry that it is like going to be what you said. You're going to be 75 85 years old.
Sit on your deathbed and thinking like I did nothing. I did nothing that I really wanted to do. You know, I didn't really pursue those things those passions and it's too late and I just I it's having done that and finally that that's that kind of, you know, I work for the government initially when I first got out of school and I was on that that track of just being a kind of a corporate, you know, there was a clear path for advancement and and something got me out of it, too.
As I can I'm just going to go build something and I really am excited for this to encourage that same process and more people. So I'm excited for this book to come out. Thank you. And I do think I'll just tell you it was a trip to write a book about creativity and again, not a snobby like Beret. This is like ruthlessly practical and contemporary setting and how and but you can also Imagine like doing something as creative as writing a book which took me super long time how
many times I got stumped how many times I and I'm just to be clear. I had to just like take my own medicine. Go back 30 pages read what I have written like four weeks ago and like Ah, that's how to do it. So like if that's anything like the fact that the book actually exists in the world is in some ways proof that what I put in their works at the most fundamental level, you know, again, we're all creative if you can start to believe that which is not a stretch it makes sense that
Creativity is a muscle in the more you use it the stronger you get and if you have that strong creative muscle and you can start to take agency over your life and shape it at first and very small ways. It's in shaping in a very small daily ways that you understand that you can literally do whatever you want. I love it. You know, you just got me the book A few days ago some about I don't know maybe a third of the way through it and it's been it's been great so far, and I know that I was looking at the back cover before our interview and
Got been a brown and Richard Branson to give you quotes for the back of your covers you already you have some pretty awesome people that that agree with you and think it's a great book. When can people pick this up by the time this drops. It's in the marketplace. If you order it. It will be at your house in a matter of days. There's a cool thing that we're doing for people who do buy right away or what's called a pre-order pre-orders means you're getting it before launched and and usually again when this drops that will be just in a couple of days where it can be sitting on your doorstep.
Your favorite online Bookseller. If you go to creative live.com, which is the platform that I co-founded in which Kevin you're through your former life at Google are an investor. That's right. If you go there were doing a special a special class. It's going to have some crazy world class guests. So go to creative live.com creative calling upload your receipt and then you get access to the special thing. So there's a couple little cool cool things. So in short any where books are sold,
Old and I love to have a view have a copy of it. I think it's a compass for a good life. When does the audible come out? Hmm. I think it's the same day as the 24-hour. Yeah. Awesome. I did my own stunts amazing. Oh, I've heard that he's a pain in the ass star you did her on audiobook and and she was just like it's stressful and I love Dario as book by the way, please say hi to her. It's been a little while since I've seen her.
It's so true. What she said is true. It is grueling. I think it took me four days of 10 hours a day reading to nail it. Wow in the books. Not that long. Obviously. That's just because there's a million mistakes in there and I'm not a professional audio person, but I also wouldn't have it any other way. I had to do my own stunts and I'm yeah super glad that I did. I just heard the first version of it a couple days ago, and I'm really happy.
Awesome. Well Chase thank you so much for being on the show as always love chatting with you and you've been certainly a huge inspiration of mine and I'm definitely gonna gonna finish this book because I as I was reading through it, there's always something to learn here no matter how like, you know creative or you know, there's I was picking up little tidbits as I was going. So, it's awesome. Well, man, you've been an inspiration to me for so long and I think that your audience if obviously they pay attention to you and what you do because of who you are.
Are the life you've lived and what you stand for your values and you like without having read the book you are living the book or only having read third of it. And to me that is that something to Aspire to just to watch all the different ways that you've manifested amazing stuff to happen for you as you said half the things that you're well known for don't even exist in the world and yet we've forgotten about that because you're a Trailblazer in so many ways. So the book was really modeled after you and a bunch of our friends Finding.
A way to make make an extraordinary life and do it on a very very small tactical of day-to-day basis that's accessible to all of us. Yeah. I love that about the book because I feel like a lot of you hinted a few times a lot of these creative books are like kind of, you know pie in the sky and there's not really, you know, it's there's not really anything. That's that's real and tactical that you can wrap your head around on how to kind of like go down this path and I feel like this is finally one of those books that that isn't just a lot of fluff, but actually, you know real process.
So, it's cool. Thanks, man. Appreciate being on the show love love what you do and I can't wait to hook up with the in Portland not too distant future here, but looking forward to it. Let's do it. Let's do a book signing out here. I'd love to come out for that will grab some proper Portland beers and
hang looking forward to it man. Thanks again for having me on the show.
All right, that about wraps it up. But hey before you bounce two quick things actually going to go three quick things thing one a thank you so much for being a part of this community and I'm not quite sure how you land on this podcast. It doesn't matter to me the fact that we're all in this together and that were able to have a conversation is awesome. I feel honored to be in your ears right now and that you paid attention to what I've been doing what creative lies been doing for some time and whether it's been a day or 10 years. I just want to say thank you. It's also
Important in on the back of that. I'd do a lot of responding to comments. So hit me up on, you know direct message me on on Instagram or Twitter or at me. I try and respond as much as possible. So let's have a conversation that transcends me just being in your ears here. Let's try and do it somewhere out there and on the internet land that's thing one thing two again. I'm not quite sure what channel's you pay attention to me and my work but please go check out. I'm at Chase Jarvis or /
these drivers or whatever and all the platform and it's really important to me. Also, if you wouldn't mind checking out CreativeLive, it's something that not only myself but a hundred and twenty other committed hardcore badass people come to work every day at to build the place where creators and entrepreneurs learn. So check that out there just / CreativeLive or a crate of live all over out there on the internet. All right until again, probably tomorrow. I hope I'll hear you. I'll be in your ears maybe tomorrow and I'll look for comments on the
internet's.
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