What's up, all you delinquents, we've got a chaal episode for you today with Justin con Jake on j-man. Founder of twitch Justin.tv prominent angel, investor podcaster, vlogger. And last but not least friend today's conversation it is going to be wild. I'm recording this intro beforehand so I actually don't know if it's going to be wild but I think it will so Justin. Why don't you come on in have a seat.
Because we're doing this one in person post covid PC. And if you want more conversations like this lightly, touch that subscribe button on YouTube, just started uploading things to YouTube lightly, hit that subscribe button. Also on your podcast players, the little ring thing on YouTube, the like button just lightly brush them. All if you like conversations at the intersection of Entrepreneurship.
V and technology. So without further delay, let's get into it with our old friend, Justin con this is below the line.
J-man. Thank you for coming on the podcast. This is numero Tres
part 3. The third time. I got to kick it off and then I did your first live one. And then now here I am again. Get rid of me
it's actually even better because now man a lots changed in the last two years from the first appearance to Second. Yeah to now we're here in La. How long are you in La for
just a couple weeks. Yeah what's exploding experimenting? Exploring its to is great down here. This is the place to be. Plus I want to do all these content collapse, you know?
Everybody's down here. Oh yeah, yeah, we were chatting the other day. You were saying that I was asking you between content and investing. What's, what are you most excited about each day?
Yeah, it's such a thing I'm most excited about. Well, it goes in waves, you know, I I like investing a lot and I like creating content a lot and different ways, the content it's very active in. You know, I have this YouTube channel that if people don't follow, they should go subscribe to my YouTube channel.
Just in con Vlog. I guess you just search for Justin Con on
the link will link to and we're about to go film some stuff for
that. Yeah we're going to go make a video after this. So my YouTube channel it's like me just start off as just telling start up stories and kind of giving startup advice and then now I'm like making Vlogs and being different kinds of videos and experimenting a lot and it's very creative process. For me. Just how do you tell a story or until a narrative in video format? You know, and how do I I've never done that before.
I never saw
him and YouTube for Matt. Yeah, it is video, but also YouTube format, we're talking a little bit about it, but what, when you created are you thinking, YouTube, first you thinking, Instagram first, I want the nitty-gritty of how you think through an idea to hitting publish on one of the video
platforms. Yeah, so I think I think of it as YouTube first, sometimes I'll test the ideas on Tick-Tock. And, you know, if I talk about certain topics like how to invest or something like that, I might make a video on Tick. Tock, looks like short one minute video, see if it does well,
Well, and that's just really me pulling the Cameron, my face and talking about startup stuff and then or Wellness, whatever things I'm in do, and then if I like the idea, I'll make it into a YouTube video and usually there's a couple different formats of YouTube videos. I've been doing one is telling a story about something in the past, so like say here's how it which got acquired by Google or Sorry by Amazon. Or here's how we almost got acquired by Google, which is a separate video. And I'll this one's
Start off like very scripted and I would just kind of tell that I'd write it out and then I tell the story from that and they did pretty well. Some of those how long ago was this I was like January. So five months
ago. Did you have like a hundred? Thirty thousand
Subs? Yeah. So it's all right. Yeah. For five months. That's that's not bad. Yeah, sometimes it could be better, you know, but like it's all it's all good. Like and
if you're discovering us through the search algorithm with Justin, hit that sub button. Yeah. On below the line, smash sub,
So smash
subscribe and hit that post notifications. The new video notifications? Yeah, that's right. So start off with very scripted and I was you know I film this footage is like 25 minutes or something telling a story and then I'll editor would cut it down and put in like memes and graphics and Transitions and stuff. And that was cool. But they were a little bit obviously scripted, right. I was reading on it, I got autocue teleprompter and it was like okay and so people started saying like you, so I
I thought it was like a little less authentic than it could be. And so I sort of just making videos where I just turn the camera on a tell, the story a trip on something just, you know, off the top of my head and with the magic of YouTube editing, you can edit that into something that's like actually reasonable. And so I started doing those and then I now I've been making more Vlogs or just take the camera around and it's like whatever I'm doing, you know. Like if I can I'll make some in La like I'm coming to La meeting with all these different, you know, influencers and creators. And maybe I'll show some behind the scenes of
that or I went to Miami. And I did a video where I'm like, giving my car away to my business partner, Robin like my ship, my car there, and I'm like surprising with it. And so just making a vlog of that you know, just be random stuff and then I try to work in some startup or Wellness related themes like the stuff that I know about I just like Riff on it in the blog or whatever
does when did this in your head start of wanting to create content. I
I mean that both in terms of the more immediate version but then also obviously your text Art was just are actually no after the Calendar app. You yeah.
So and TV. So I've been thinking about content for a long time, right? I sort of Justin.tv where it was us doing a 24/7 live stream back in two thousand six and fifteen years ago. And then about eight years after that, I did this other, you know, I start making content on Snapchat and
making like startup advice on Snapchat and that was very novel at the time. And then after that, you know, then I stopped that and I made, you know, this is the third wave are making like YouTube videos and maybe some Tick-Tock videos and I would say each time it comes kind of randomly. You know, it's like I never really loved. I wasn't like someone who was like, oh I always want to be creating content. I want to make movies or something like that. It was more the first time. It was kind of like this is a way for people. I had the semblance of an idea that social media would exist like people are interested in following people back in 2006.
And so, if you just showed someone a window into someone else's life, they would be interested in that. And you could make somebody into celebrity and that would be valuable like in terms of advertising or creating business or whatever. So, that was the idea behind Justin TV and I think I was right. The problem is like a 24/7 live stream is not interesting. You have to, like, make it more edited and chopped up, you know, into more digestible parts. And so I think the spiritual successors of that was like the stories feature and, you know, Instagram and Snapchat. It's like showing people this window into like someone's life.
And celebrities are all, they're all doing stories now. And, you know, people will kind of see that and they get to feel like to get to know them. Right. Yeah. So then the Snapchat side it was more of like an experiment. You know. I heard about Snapchat stories and I was like, oh this is kind of like the idea we had for Justin.tv but way better implemented. And so I creating content for it was more of an experiment to understand the platform and then I got into it and I was, you know, using it and having fun with it. I stopped, because I kind of stopped growing and I felt like, I just started new startups. I've kind of switch Focus.
Yes. But I always really enjoyed it and then this most recent time I got into YouTube, well, like first I got it, I was making a podcast and I start making a podcast because I recorded someone else's podcast. It wasn't yours mobile someone else's, and then that company that was making the podcast was like, oh you should have a podcast to and so I was kind of like oh you'll do all the work and I did it for me like I'll just all I have to do is have this conversation. Like I'll try it and so I did that I was having fun with that and then I was trying to hire someone to help me produce the podcast after
Like six months. It was kind of working decently and I recruited other person, I was like looking to hire someone and then the person who one of the people who I end up hiring she was like you should do YouTube and he's very resistant at first but she kind of convinced me, it would be easy to try it out and so her name is Jan. She this convinced me to try YouTube and I
started was she your producer for the podcast or just? Well, she actually had someone else to produce
podcasts. I was like, okay, I'll work with you on producing a YouTube channel.
It'll and so she was the one who kind of introduced me to you do this idea, I can create YouTube content and then not I've had a lot of fun with it so I'm for me it's like always about being open to new ideas and experiences and just
trying and it sounds like you're also keenly aware of just different type of content for different tools and really I think I'm still in the actual tool
versus. I think it's interesting to understand like what are the format's that work and like understanding, you know, because I've been the content platform Creator and creating like a platform
Interesting because you're creating this space for people to try different ideas. And now I'm like, do on the other side where I'm like, trying different ideas and seeing what's working and understanding how the platform's work is interesting. I like
understand how pot forms
work is ultimately, it's a combination of the technology but it's also human psychology. Like what do people like to consume and like how do they interact with the content and engage with it right and so you know with YouTube for example, just understanding oh there's this content shift that's going on and you
It's probably obvious to people who are in contact, but for me, it was even as somebody who create helped create which, you know, wasn't obvious. It's like the, you can now edit the acceptability on, like how authentic the content is, is much higher than like, what's a TV, but then also how you edit it can be edited super tight, right? It's and so, you know, I might take if I spit ball something about investing in startups into the camera, you can take, you know, I've I don't,
Say it exactly right. You know, say the lines are right or there's like, stumbles in my sentence, you can just cut that out. And like, edit, like one sentence together from multiple clips, and that's like considered, okay, right? Like kind TV, that would never happen, right? But it's, it's like, fine on YouTube
and my podcast, that would be hard. Yeah, be hard to Listen to. If there is the shift in and, you know, intonation in the voice. Yeah. Well usually, like you would do
it in a way that it's not, you know, super obvious. But, yeah, I've seen, I've seen a lot of that. Where if you look at someone like Emma chamber,
Owens videos where she's just riffing in front of the camera, 90% of the time, it's like, she'll edit, you know, she's probably recording like 20 minutes of content and then just editing out this like, great for minutes or whatever, you
know. And are you how involved are you in the editing process? Do you like,
I don't do it, I just punt it because I don't actually care that, much about the editing. I like I have an intuitive understanding of. Like, if I just say enough interesting things than like, someone can edit it into like something that's pretty good. And that's what work so far. So actually I do
Get that draft back and then I usually make some slight like a feedback, but it's very light.
Usually, how much time are you spending per week on the content
creation side? I do like one podcast a week on average. I mean, usually they're clumped up and that's about 90 minutes. And the podcast, my quest podcast is like kind of telling other it's a guest style podcast. So I don't like below the line and bring people in and then just it's for me, it's a chance to have a conversation with
someone that's that. Yeah, even if I don't.
Aunt, at
first, I was like, if nobody listens to this, I'm actually don't not even gonna look at the stats so that I can see that I'm doing it for intrinsic reasons. And after I did it for a couple months, I was like, oh, I just even if nobody looks at this, like, it's awesome to be a lot of this conversation with someone where I wouldn't normally sit down with someone to have a 90 minute conversation about
them. It was just like no social convention to allow. Yeah. 90 minute conversation. No
phones. Yeah. And it's
just us and it's going deep into. I feel like there's you turn on the mic for someone and
Are you put a mic in front of someone? And it's like the
I don't know what it is, but the honesty light comes out. Yeah, I think, which is strange because you with an audience, you think would be the opposite, be a little bit more kg,
but maybe it's a cut, feels like some form of catharsis, right? Right. So I do that podcast every week and then the second thing is making YouTube videos, and they don't take that long actually because I probably record. It depends if I'm like blogging, then, I'll take it with me and that's kind of while I'm doing stuff. If I am making like a sit-down talking head video, then I'll probably spend 30 minutes on it, you know.
Put a set. It up recorded like me, riffing on something and then all this shit that footage off.
So, like eight hours a week, six hours a week on creating content that
it might be like, it might be like five or six hours.
Yeah, it is. And it's awesome. It's great content. Both podcast. I love as well as the the YouTube content as well as you have the foreperson
pot. Yeah. This podcast on my YouTube channel called only friends, which is me and some of my other like kind of long life.
Old friends at we have one chat group, right? That we've had since like 2010, probably or 2009, whatever there was like,
multi you Seibel
Seibel is on it. So Co y combinator, who's my co-founder Justin.tv, and then MHz of twitch, now is co-founder just leaving, twitch, and then we'll, it rotates through, like, whoever from the Czech Republic to join. So we got like t-con, you know, you know, I was a co-founder Scribd. We've been friends with forever and then Jamie Quinn was early YC guy who was head of growth that read it and
and,
Notion. And then some of our other friends will like rotate through. You know,
is there, are there any content projects you picked up in the last year that you that you think? Okay. We might have to Sunset that already projects that you picked up around any of these things where you try it and it doesn't work
well. I would say like on Tick-Tock for example I started to make less content on Tick Tock I was like really into it in January February and started making it last cuz I feel like it's just right? And like the fit
For like me is not 100%. Like I think the audience likes it but it's like I prefer to be able to have it like, longer format to tell a story. Okay. It's just easier to I think would take targets. I got to be, you know, the attention span is so short. Like it's got to be really tight and it's more for like there's a lot of comedic stunts, like kind of like really Punchy comedic that stuff works or like visual juxtapositions like, whereas that's not really my style right as much. I'm more.
I'm just going to tell you some authentic stuff and you know people some set of people like that you know have you it's not it's not as viral I guess in the same way I think YouTube rewards my YouTube content more than take talker was my ticket on my heart. That
yeah, dude, I think in terms of platforms well I'll ask you if you were to put all of your investment in one platform investment of energy, even, you know, if you were to make a bet with a million dollars on one platform,
That would pay off the best in 10 years. Which
one you two hands on YouTube? I think YouTube has a long way to go. I think the channels part of YouTube like people falling Channel. I mean they've had that for a long time obviously since the beginning actually but like now you choose really gone all-in on channels, right? Like I'm people creating their own channels and I think the influencer or a Creator world is just getting started, you know you have like mr. B's making mr. B's burger and and became a becoming pretty huge for overnight because he's able to drive all this
Attention, I think the same is going to be, there's going to creators in every different category, you know, including business, entrepreneurship, and wellness, or whatever. And so it's a great platform and I do feel like I'm reaching a lot of people in a positive way. I get these notes from people who are like thank you so much for Content. Like really helped me through this like tough time or you know whatever I talk a lot about failing and you know people see me as I know you've been really successful but just knowing that like a wrestle with anxiety depression or a failed at things but you know,
Even post being successful is, I think a message that helps a lot of people. So YouTube is great and I think it's only going to grow and so I'm all in on YouTube, you
know? Yeah, the I think you two. Yeah, if I could make a bet in any mature technology, not even just content platforms. I agree that YouTube is the one where it's just getting started. It is outrageous that I will choose to watch a podcast on YouTube. The probably cost $2,000 to produce of to
Comedians or an episode of years, I will choose that over Will Smith Netflix movie, that they probably put a hundred million dollars in. Yeah, I'm like taking a flyer on. I don't know if I'm actually going to get into it versus, all right, this is like ongoing character development of knowing this individual or this style
of. So I'm talking about people, you know, you. So I said with the Justin.tv thing is like people follow people, you know, and that kind of like
like connection that you have with like with a Creator is very powerful.
Yeah, yeah, it's theirs and there's something very human about the algorithm and that it's Balaji was on the. The podcast recently is famous for a phrase recently. They said
I bet you came across. It was along the lines of if code scripts machines, media scripts humans. Yeah. And I think humans script algorithms and it's
not the other, right? It's a reflection. I mean, they're showing you people what they want is, what is what you're showing reflection of like, what you're what you want.
Exactly. So if you're complaining about the, the insanity or the state of the world, based on what Facebook or Instagram is showing us, it's it's just a mirror back towards what that person wants to see.
Right. And and YouTube I think has the most human algorithm and our pro-human algorithm in that it is it rewards. Watch time. It rewards engagement with the channel and it rewards long-form content. And you know anything over 10 minutes I'd say is long form in the world today. So like a 25-minute video around this time. You know XYZ topic YouTube wants to serve you up more and more of those and
It ends up being it's not 10 seconds on like a tick tock that is visually engaging. And usually, I think like sexually provocative and so much of tick tock is and there's very little, it's, it's almost like YouTube is made for ideas and long-form discussion of ideas. I don't know if there's any other platform maybe podcast, but that's not really quote unquote. Leo platform for long-form idea.
Well, I think that to be fair, I do think there's like lots of different content on Tick-Tock and it's more of like, a format versus which support, you know, it's more the format versus like YouTube. Like Tick-Tock allows there's like, you know, there's everything. There's like people who are doing, that's true. That's true. It on Tick Tock, or like
the real, like, reels on Instagram is very sexually. Like, at least when they're kicking off the product few months ago is just all Dancing. Yeah, but yeah, Tick Tock does have some very cool education stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah, and then with YouTube, I think, you know, they have shorts and they're adding, you know, I'm not sure if they really reward like they'll really long form content. But it's, yeah, YouTube is. It's interesting because I think their algorithms surfaces their content in new people, right? Just like Tic Tacs does. And that helps you build an audience.
What is, how do you compare and contrast to Twitch?
Well, switches kind of a grind, to be honest, right? Like that's that's the, the hard part is like, with twitch. It's like, you've got to be on Twitch all the time.
The grant which and with YouTube like, you know for taking me, right, like I'm not going to be on Twitter because I got a job, right? I'm investing full-time, incubating companies, I got other things to do in my day than be on Twitch and so Twitches. I think really good because for people like you don't have to be to be a certain type of entertaining but you don't have to think of like viral ideas or anything like that, right? You just like, go on play games or there's like, you know, the acceptable it's more like talk radio where you can like
Fill in the white space with something very easy. Whereas with, you know, maybe if you're mr. B's or something you're trying to come up with like, viral ideas and like kind of crazy ideas. It's like, that's pretty hard to implement, right? So Twitchy, be harder than YouTube, I think, or sorry. It can be easier than YouTube in some ways, but then it's hard. It takes a lot of time.
It's like a newsletter, a good newsletter hook. People got it seemed so onerous to write a great newsletter every week or to keep up with the demand.
Your streams? Yeah, on
Twitch does. Okay, tell me about La. What is the? You are hero before during the pandemic your back for a few weeks.
I think you sold your place in SF so maybe give me just update a life update on you during the pandemic and
yeah, well I you know so my plate. I moved out of San Francisco, moved it. Like rural California, how come what you know whenever the point of living in a city is to be around other people and during the pandemic it was not you know, did not you couldn't do that. Really, right, so we went out to the middle of nowhere which is really nice and so still live there, but it's good to come and see other people.
Once in a while. And so taking this trip to LA with the family and it's been pretty good. I mean, I'm only being your day so far, you know. Oh,
is there plans to move back to SF nothing? I'm asking you as a friend
now, yeah, I'm not moving. I'm not never moved back to
SF. How come why do you say it like
that? Why why, why should I leave? SF itself is like going through, I think has a really serious problems, you know? Like there's like
The crime, or at least, you know, they'll cite crime, stats, going down in some areas but I think that's wrong because I think reporting crime is like gone down as well. I think a crime and is like rampant and I said that people don't feel safe, right? And so you know, safety is like really low on Maslow's hierarchy of needs. So I think that's, you know, now maybe I'm just like an old complaining guy, you know, saying that now he's I
even when we're when you and I both were living there. I our car got broken into
Three times in the first year. Yeah, there was there and it was like, laughable to try to report it. Exactly. People are set the tone
for. Yeah. People are always breaking in to, you know, steal my car or still my bikes, my car Etc. Like, I've dealt with that constantly, you know, and there's nowhere. You can live in SF that's like immune from that. You could be the nicest neighborhood, which is not the one that I want to be in. Anyways, but like, and it's still the case. So I think SF has some structural problems with how its
Managed, which make it tough to live there when, you know, with your family and stuff like that. So, and then in the remote world where you can live anywhere and do your job, like is f is SF the place that you would choose. You know, I think it's beautiful many ways and I love the city in a lot of ways but I don't know if it's this, put the place I would choose to live. Maybe it's time for something new for me.
What is was a natural question? What is the place that?
I mean I live right now in the countryside and I like that. Yeah. So I think that might be it and then I'll just come
Once in a while. Yeah.
Do you think being an investor do you think it's going to take a hit at all?
I don't think so. I think for Founder's it's better to meet all these investors by zoom and be able to do back-to-back duties and meetings and then you can just raise your mom around and like days. It's so much easier for both sides. Right? And the investors, I don't think they're going to want to go back to only meeting in person because it's really efficient for investors and you can live anywhere,
right? You know I went to a meeting yesterday in person here in La over on
Montana, it's a point, eight mile. Maybe a mile away. Yeah, barely a mile and to get an Uber was 17 minutes so that made me late. So by the time, my wife got back with a car was like alright. I'm going to take the car so I was 15 minutes. Late look for parking for another 10 minutes, sat down the whole thing was like an hour, a zoom meeting, the default is a nicely at 30 minutes, so it's default the long story short, it was an hour and 45 minutes for a meeting that
I mean this whole podcast filter all Candor within seven minutes I was like this is this is a poor use of
time. Yeah.
Is it was actually the first coffee meeting that I was like. Okay, let's do it in person for the
novelty. Yeah. Now you're never going back. You're never going back. You're only going to do? Zoom means from now from this studio,
exactly. Either Zoom for 30 minutes or a podcast deep convo for now, but there really shouldn't be anything in between.
Yeah.
Now I agree with you. I think this is a great format and seeing people in person for this kind of interview is that's great but like for most things especially you're just getting to know someone. You don't need to do
that, right? Right? Or with friends doing it in a group, then it really makes it worth it. Yeah, to go in person. But okay, so with in investing what within five years just out at personal curiosity, what's like,
What would the ideal scenario be for you between content and investing five years from of the, the absolute vision
board version? I think I'm living it, you know? Yeah, I spend most of my time investing and incubating company. So goat Capital are fun. We also incubate companies out of it and so we're working on a few of those. Most of that's most of the day we do
content, it's great. What are some of the spaces you've been investing over? Let's say this past week. That
is I, was we get last week, I haven't invested in anything,
okay? But in the last,
What is pulled your attention? Space wise company wise where
your head? There's like some Health Care once thinking about. So Healthcare is an interest area of mine and you know we have I think maybe this company called aalto couple years ago and yeah that's doing really well after that that kind of got me into it's a digital Pharmacy company and after that I got into Healthcare investing and so made a couple Investments other Fund in the healthcare space and that's one one big area where
Areas of healthcare, so oftentimes like software to make things more efficient, you know, or make connect people in better ways, it's probably pretty boring from the outside like I think the industry is just so massive and things are done. So poorly, in many ways with, you know, just like having more startups, innovating. As a good thing,
I mostly it's mostly on the process side though. It's not
like new treatments or anything like that.
Right. Yeah right. Yeah. It is it is like that's a world where the
Local infrastructure is just completely missing at least modern technological. Infrastructures
completely missing. Well, I think it's, you know, slowly being upgraded over time, just like
anything. Not like, I would say, not like most things. It's so heavily regulated that it is. It takes someone with a really big pickaxe say, okay. We're going to build the information infrastructure company. An investor in company called Next Health where it's just a API Communications layer box offices. And in this, just a
Massive, that's not you. No slack. That's not building out a Communications layer like jira. That's like, it's everything that you trying to do is three times as heavy. Yeah. Within. Just the compliance side of things.
Yeah. It's, it's a
I mean, like yeah, there's a lot of like regulatory lift on that side, you know, building a health care company for sure it's not great.
Is it are there what are some other spaces that goat and does it actually just backing up this go Capital? Do you think about things in terms of spaces or Theses? Well, it's such a, it's just interesting
because my partner and I are a little bit different so Robin it's just the two of us and it's a
You know, we're like a seed fund. We participate in some series A's and Robin is much more. He's like a hunter-gatherer, so he's like or like a hunter I guess he's like going out he has a thesis and he's like okay I want to go find a company like this, right? So for example maybe a year and a half ago he was like oh Justin we should someone should create a genetically modified organism like a GMO tree company like a company that is GMO trees to pull more carbon atom.
The atmosphere and then we actually went and found it. So we found this company called living carbon, they do exactly that based in San Francisco, founder Maddie Halls, really incredible Dynamic, young founder. And that's an example, if you think he has a thesis of like this is a way you could attack us from problem, or here's a big industry that's about to happen. Climate change, is one of the ones, he's particularly interested in who we both are. And so then he'll go out and like find a company, right? And then
I'm more, like, I would consider myself like a farmer. I'm like agriculture, right. I'm out of there, making my YouTube videos and I got a lot of like relationships. He does to actually probably more than me, but like of people who send me stuff and then I just aggregate all the deals and kind of parse. And then I'm more interested in kind of like the Y combinator Styles like YC funds, the companies where that apply, right? It's like funds out of pool of applicants applicants. I mostly like, looking at the people I get in touch with or get in touch with me and I'm like, okay, this is good businesses and this is good business. This
And I just try to find the ones that I think are good.
Yeah, it is there. Anything that has changed over the years that you've been investing? Where your mindset has shifted? Where you're doing it differently? Yeah, I think I've got
more picky, you know, and more willing to trust my gut. I think a lot, I used to invest more into things where I thought it was a good idea, but maybe I like had some feeling that it was like, wasn't quite right for whatever reason, maybe the founder wasn't right or whatever.
And I think that's always a mistake. Is I've never been like,
what's a mistakes. And again, I've never
thought like, this is a, you know, my I've never had the gut feeling that it was like, actually probably not a good investment but like it seemed like a really good on paper. So I invested anyways and that been good. Yeah. I had a good outcome
is it has part of that been robbing and having a partner? Yeah,
Robins it's good to talk through things with with someone. So I like it's also like I don't make on the Fly decisions, very much anymore where I'm like, oh, I'm for sure what I used to be like
Have one meeting be like, okay, I want invest now it's like it's I think I'm a little more disciplined about like, okay, I'll wait a day and see how I feel and, like, do some more research and and then decide, then
how do you compare investing versus building for how it speaks on investing? Investing is like
the way easier, you know, interested in so many ways, but I think more importantly you know with I realized that I just like the things you have to do when you're investing more than I like the things you have to do.
When you're doing something so investing. It's like, you are learning about new spaces, you're meeting new people and you are raising Capital. Like, I love those things, right? And helping people out in mentoring them, right? Once you've made the investment on the building side, you're like managing people, you are recruiting, you're building a product. This is like I don't want to do those things. Most of the day most times it's like that was bad. Rather spend my time doing the
Things.
I'd do you ever look at a Founder that's going into that. And like man
I think there's some Founders were there. They would be better off as investors for sure, but I mean everyone should have their try
well and Warren Buffett says you know, it's and I believe that strongly that being a businessman and his in his Viewpoint he says being a businessman has made me a better investor of being an investor as
man. Yeah I believe that a
hundred percent. I wouldn't know what to imagine. Would you have been a decent investor? Had you
not
Well I think right now everybody's a good investor because they're investing is massive like a 12-year bull market. Right? So do you think like I probably would have been
yeah? The same, same on paper, success stories, and Lester, you
think? Yeah, I think so. I mean just anyone who's like been investing in technology over the last 12 years looks like a genius right now so you know
so so true. Yeah I had some that have done really well and and it's so easy to be like, oh man, I think I'm really good at this. Yeah. And especially
In comparison to actually the sad realization probably.
A year ago? I was like man. I think I'm a better investor than founder or why was that sad? It's sad. I guess sad because I
I love making things. Yeah, really love making things and I know I'm happy to be pleasantly surprised if I'm wrong in this, but I love making things and I think building a company is Justice in the most sustainable way to continue to make
things. Yeah.
So the investing side is more of a money management type of pursuit and it is encouraging, I love encouraging creators, that is also speaks to my soul. But
If I couldn't make things then yeah, that would that would totally destroy my soul. So figuring out that I was a better investor than someone that could maybe make things on a grand scale. Yeah, it's like shit. Okay. This kind of sucks because I love making and I really I guess I type companies and Entrepreneurship to the most sustainable, you know. Yeah. Artistic artistic
expression. Well, I mean occurs to me that you could make stuff and not be the
Best in the world at it and be okay with
that. Right. Right. And I think it's actually the this concept that I am trying to put out in the world as surrender, uppity. So Serendipity from just surrendering to whatever the universe kind of has in store all of that. And so I'm okay with making that observation of okay, here to here, to for 14 years, into building thinks, maybe on better investor, but maybe in a very good in a good.
Positive way, you're right in that know the bull market makes you think that makes me think that I'm going to be some investor but it's actually
well I think there's some part of the some of both right? You're like a pretty smart guy and able to meet people and do some analysis on the businesses and your pick, some really great businesses. You know, and you've been investing to this massive bull market. So like very lucky to be in the right place at the right time. Right? Yeah. Probably some of both just like
entrepreneurship. Yeah, definitely. There's a timing is so
Important in it. Do you think there's a, this is the the dumbest. And yet the most interesting question to ask really smart friends, but when you say it's been a 12-year bull market, there seems to be some implicit communication that you think it's. It could be coming to an
end. No, I actually don't think that
necessarily really yet. Okay. So tell me more. What do you think is going to happen with? Or, how would you respond to someone saying? All right, it's been a 12 year old bull market, crash could be coming.
And Tech is so wildly,
overvalued.
Well, I don't think Tech is in general is wildly overvalued. I feel like we're going through this massive digital transformation of our economy. That's going to take a hundred years and we're like 30 years in. Yeah. And so to me that's just Hugh continues to be huge opportunity. Yeah, it's like Bitcoin is like super valuable now and appreciate a 10x in the last year or whatever, 5x and last year, but I think it's gonna, you know, my price Target is in the hundreds of
thousands of dollars. So I think it's probably, you know, that doesn't just because of what has happened in the last whatever period of time doesn't necessarily mean anything about the future. I think for tack it's just I think it's every company is becoming a tech company. So there's just a huge opportunity. I think increase in to feeling that transformation. So I think now, still a great time to invest but I bought also, like we've been riding that train and so the point is more like you people who have been on the train for the last 10 years I've done.
well, so, you know, that's they've been lucky also
and arguably are in the best position to
To continue be lucky to be lucky. I mean X10
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La. You got long hair. It's become a far. Far along way from we met January of 2012. So
yeah, it's been nine years I realized I was thinking about that this morning. It's like now what, you know? Now we're old friends, dude. I know is you're
both old. We are both old, we both have kids, you know, I remember the first time I met you
We met in the back of YC, we're in the same batch and you had been third before. So you really knew ins and outs. Yeah. And we're in the back of the room. We sat down next to each other or eating dinner and think everybody in the batch knew who you were and we're sitting down eating dinner and there and then you kind of ended the conversation. Everyone is continue topping you tight talking. You were typing and I think you're coding for exact at the time.
And I remember feeling like this guy's kind of tough isn't tough
cookie? Well, yeah. Well what what made you say
that? I think there was three hours, I think there was a look at other companies. I think it was almost I got divide this could have just been in my head that it was like there's a competition. Hmm. He's other companies are
competition. Hmm.
And maybe maybe not direct way but some indirect. Yeah, I think I
have a, I have a, you know, one thing I've learned a lot about myself in the last couple of years. We kind of talked about
This on the podcast and the last couple episodes, right? That that we did together. And one of the things I've learned about myself more recently, is that I have a look by default that's like disinterested
But then it goes to like I'm very warm and engaging. I can be very warm and engaging but then I also like have this flat disinterested look like by default. So it's like kind of like a random reward ratio for people like a variable reward system where people like they're like, oh I want the engaging Justin but like sometimes I'm getting to like Justin who just like things like he's like not interested and I think that makes people want it more actually. And so I've gotten this feedback from people in various contexts where it's like,
If I was just like not engaging all the time, people be like, okay, fuck that guy, right? And they just be like whatever, but because it's kind of like there's like a glimpse or they like see that like you knowing that that thing that pulls them in and then it's like taken away. It's like a creates this like people are like kind of like what the fuck or they're like, they're like left wanting more and I think that was a learned behavior from when I was a kid where, well, I think part of its natural like genetic or
Whatever. It's kind of like my natural state but then I think part of it is like a learned behavior from when I was a kid. And one of my friends, I did this program called leaders in Tech. I think I might have talked about it before on the podcast, but basically, it's like a, it was kind of a program like a like, a year-long group, right? Like monthly meeting group and it's kicked off with this. Like and PV at this, this like intense Workshop. Basically called a t group where everyone, you know, you have 12 people in the circle. It's facilitated and just
talked for like 40 hours about how the other people are making me feel for 40 hours, 40 hours over the course of four days. Yeah. All right. Dan's. There was a 36 hours or something like that. It was like a lot. And I learned about my so much about myself in reflected by these other people were strangers, right? You don't know anyone in the room. And anyways, after that in one of these like follow-on meetings, one of my friends told me. She was like, you have this natural way of creating a power dynamic between, like, putting yourself in a position of
To power to the people around you and it's almost like like a reality Distortion field or whatever, and there's many ways that you can, you do it. And I was aware of some of them, but I had never heard of it like this. Someone that knew you? Well, yes, you know, me too. Well, through this program, right? Like, damn, what you spend like, 36 hours with someone and then like, you know, we were in the group ongoing group together. So we'd spent like, you know, 70 hours together, right? Or something like that. In, like really intense, like, workshopping style conversation, not just like casual and so it was interesting.
Resting to hear that. And it resonated with me and I guess my point is like, when we first met, I think there was probably some of that Dynamic at play, though. I was just doing subconsciously without even knowing it.
So from my experience, I was there was kind of this. I think there was a physical distancing of maybe an inch or two of like, who is this? That's coming to sit down next to maybe there's like two or three other people kind of physical distancing. There was kind of a, I don't know why. I remember this kind of cold. I think our vividly and
In the the coldness of it I think because because in our in our batch you are well known and so it was maybe three weeks in two weeks and I was like okay sweet was sitting next
to yeah.
Justin and say hey and it was get this this 2-inch just tilted head kind of distancing and kind of a little bit of a cold. Look, not not super cold. I'm being, yeah, I'm being like, now, tell later I'm not I'm not sure coming in this all and then kind of like a it's interesting.
Eating at you articulate that way there. Maybe there was this establishment of you're on probation right now of this conversation but I will say that's so different than
I feel like the just in the last three, four, five years. Yeah, and I obviously part of that could be that our friendship but I actually think it's. You also your default? It seems to change towards. I remember, we're going into another friend's apartment. I remember seeing you was we're going in whatever 8 in the morning and you saw me from 50 feet away and the warmest smile, like, dude. James
No. And I was, I was like, I think it took me by surprise but since then that's it. That's probably been two years. Three years in China Sea. There's a default really high warmth
well. So so I don't remember if you remember but that was always there, right? And that like you'll remember like we had that party bus that we fund with tilt, right? And so like I love to host people and engage with people and like in that I think that was the first time we really hung out.
That was like, we were best friends, right? Not just like, we're in the same way as he Bachelorette, ever. And I don't know how your impression was, but like, I think it was, you know, I remember myself being very engaged with people around, you know, during that I think the difference is just most of the time before like, before this, like, you know, transformation last couple of years I was like mostly engaged with ideas and not that interested in other people. It's mostly interested in myself. Actually, I was like someone to put myself in the center of the universe and I think more recently,
I've like just become more interested in people and like being interested in engaging and curious and excited about the people around more than the ideas.
Walk me through part of that transformation, we've chatted about, we broached the topic on previous episodes.
Yeah. Well, I think it's a lot of it. I think a lot of it is,
Really learning that a mini that people you can learn something really internalizing. And you can learn something from anybody. You know, you can learn something from anybody and everybody and there's something interesting about every person and having that mindset, you know, and probably trying to, you know, hold that context has really been a big part of it. I think. And then the other part is, I think before I was really engaged with the world of ideas and specifically startups and business, but I was engaged with the world of ideas because
Like this is, you know, I was always an extrovert. I wanted the attention and connection with other people, but I didn't know how to get it. I think when I was a kid. So I created this, like defense mechanism around, you know, kind of least ways of putting myself in positions of relative powers like, how it put it? Then I was like, well, if I just get become successful then and then I'll pure will be attracted to me, right? And that was what I can do. The whole thing working on Twitch and startups and eventually becoming successful
Cecil and then, of course, it doesn't like change anything really? And then after that, it was realizing, this is a shift was like, oh, actually, the real way to connect with people just to be curious and interested and open to them. Like, you don't need to be super rich or famous or whatever, you know, and that like works a lot better actually and so I think that realization plus the like becoming generally interested in the people around me is like what the transformation was,
were there, any specific events or any specific?
I really just like a lot of learning over time, you know, really. Yeah, he's
part of that growing security with yourself and and not needing to get to a certain place in your mind through business or through. You know, that could be. I think
that's a valid question and maybe that's part of it. I think a lot of it was that part was already always there and I think there's a part where like love people and I like love to engage, you know, I was a very warm person and I think I came out when I was hosting.
People you're right and you are totally right on that. They remember going to your apartment and and the party bus and it was complete like hospitality and warmth, right? That
was just like 5% of the time and 95% of the time I was like, okay, I'm working on this business and like what are you talking about your boring, right? Like and then so people would get this like, random reward ratio and they'd be like, want that it's like a slot machine. They want the like warm Justin, right? And then, I think it's just the ratio has changed a lot, you know.
I remember, I wanted you to become an investor and tilt so that we would, it was almost like
Like like and I think maybe part
of yeah you want it super badly right? Like I think yeah yeah
I remember that really tell me what you remember it.
Well I remember you coming around and like being like, hey I want you to invest and I think there was I broke down. I do remember, I broke down, I was like look if it's like a 50 million dollar valuation or something like that, and I was like, this is like not a good investment for these. You know, economic reasons, I don't remember what the reasons were at the time, but I think the valuation just like I was like, he was the range of outcomes that I think we're possible.
Be. Yeah. And then I was like, so I just think it's like, the out. The range of the expected value is like, not high enough,
right? And you can be totally, I want you to be
told I think that's what I said, right as well. But something like that. Yeah. And then I think you did you make the deal better for me?
Think so I've made you an advisor as
well. Yeah, so you made the deal better for me and I was like okay that would like brings into the rain and so I'll saw him best but I you didn't have to do that, right? You had all the money, you need it. You didn't have to do that. Anything you specifically wanted me to
invest? Yeah. And I think it's because, maybe it's that that
That slime in your head? Well yes know you were that you were living rent-free in my head like I've got to get Justin. Oh and I think maybe part of this I wonder if you being the oldest sibling is also part of the the comfort of this power Dynamic. I always have discount eyes, a youngest of five. I always have discomfort. Yeah, I hate Authority. Like just trust it with for specifically, three older, brother being you know, Tyrant. Yeah. Authority figures. Yeah.
But I remember also being so wired are now. I am so wired and I remember having this realization a few years ago that I'm so wired to. It's not just, I want everyone to like me for the benefits of being liked in the youngest of five. I think it's in my head of, like, I don't get to belong and less. I'm spot. Checking, making sure that everybody, right? We're going to be there. Yeah. And and, and then I'm
light. Yeah. And so I remember.
With almost every YC partner invested in. I was like, Justin didn't. Yeah, I'm showing interest. So yeah to pitch you. Yeah to get you to join.
Yeah I remember that. Yeah I think that's right. I'm the oldest right? And so it's for me I think a lot of it came from my mom. I would see that how she, you know, she was murdered someone of my mom in a lot of ways. And then also my dad in some ways. My dad is like, he's kind of has that passive look that's just like not in.
Kind of like disinterested look by default, like I don't think that necessarily reflects what's going on in the inside all the time, but like that's kind of like the default looks. I think I have that. Similarly a my mom can be very warm and effusive in like connecting the really interested in people. So it's kind of like flips back and forth between those, you know, where do
you think it comes from with your, with your dad?
I think
he's a little bit like doesn't, you know, that's kind of just the his family environment like there were not.
That communicative you know, I was with the impression I got that wasn't there.
Yeah, I yeah and I remember this feeling of like gather some distance between this person that I admire and I want to get them on the same team. It was like even before young of s, it was like, literally like I don't know I just we're here we bump into each other. A few months I wanted on the same team and I was like, oh, let me get him to invest way after, see ya. And it's so
Was it does I think work in your favor and that it does.
I think it I think it does. I think it does work in my fear, I think it's a learned habit, that's like a defense defense mechanism. Might be the wrong word but like a way that I've learned to it's an Adaptive response to shape the world to revolve the world around me, you know? And that makes me feel because I always felt like an outsider and like I didn't connect with people that like, makes me feel like I'm feelin cider. Yeah. When I was growing up,
really why?
Yeah, I think it's a cool setting.
Yeah, in school and just like, I don't think I got the approval from my peers that I always wanted, you know. And so that was a major driver in like, oh, become successful etcetera. And so I think that this is like a learned behavior to create, you know, put myself in the position of power and like, have the world orbit around me,
right? What was 13 year old Justin
like I mean I was I was a nerd and I but I was kind of like the popular nerd in the group of nerds, right? And so, you know, I kind of created my own
Little domain. But I was always like, looking at the cool kids and like, wanting to be wanting to be accepted. Yes,
that's interesting. I would think I was probably the nerdy kid in the popular group and so the inverse of that still looking it barely let in. Yeah, to the border and looking into that, you know, epicenter that you, you want to be in or that will serve some validation that you're doing this whole life thing.
Right. Yeah, kind of in there but I was definitely that the, the nerdiest of my group of friends. It was almost like forced to be into the interest that they had when I had these separate interest, but it was like my own separate interests. Be damned. Yeah, I need to feel this belonging. Yeah, and this group, there's an interview question that can't remember who who says the question, but it's along the lines of tell me something. Had happened between before your 18th birthday. That helps
Who you've become you've been on the podcast before. And I've asked tell me three stories that helped shape who you become. But I wanted to ask you if there was something before the age of 18 that you look back and say, okay that was that's certainly shape to all the time.
That's a good question. The think about that is there's something that's shaped who I've become from the. I mean, I'm sure like everything, right? But it's like hard to draw the parallels back to a specific thing. Like what are the memories that I remember? Even I have like a very bad memory of my childhood which I feel like is probably some sort of adaptive response. Do, you know, this will probably a lot of things that like, were like memories that I have of being on the out group, you know?
Like I remember like I remember when you know when I was like 13 or something, I'd like that I was wearing like it's some t-shirt that was like super big and like this one girl in my class is like making fun of me of this like t-shirt. She was like it looks like you're showing cleavage, you know, I was like big neck hole or something like a total like it was probably what I would be wearing today to be honest like in LA you know like a giant scumbag like style yeah giant neck and baggy t-shirt you know looking like a DJ or something but at the
I was not cool and I just remember, I remember that like feeling like I was on the outside. It's a small thing. You know, it wasn't like the biggest thing. I'm surprised you still
remember, dude, I remember in sixth grade. So I was wearing a yellow apparently, a too bright yellow shirt and someone said I wouldn't become friends older brother at schools, like I wouldn't be caught dead in that shirt. That's like that's a weird forever. The first time I came across that phrase. I was like, he wouldn't be caught dead in this shirt. I need to be thinking about the clothes. I'm going to potentially be caught dead daddy.
And it shouldn't be the shirt. And yeah, totally stuck with me. I never wear that shirt ever again. Yeah. Maybe
it's a small things, you know. But I can't point to like one like big thing where it's like this is
This is like, shape me in the specific Direction, you know, it's probably like all these smaller incidences
well and I'm sure for being an older brother to super-smart younger brothers. I'm sure that's been. That's been part of that. Just continuation of shaping you. Do you ever do everything about sibling order and
terms? Well, I think the similar order, definitely affected our family, a lot, you know, I think I'm classic first kid, you know, like achiever.
You're like my mom. Put a lot of energy into like making sure that like I was good at math. For example, I was like remedial. I math when I was in grade school and my mom is a physics. Major was like there's no fucking way. I'm going to have like a kid who's like bad at math. So she would like make me do extra homework basically and she would do it by writing the problems like multiplication problems and addition, you know, basic arithmetic in like colored pencils. So would be an issue. We call them colored problems and be like, you know, I'd have to basically do this extra problem sets.
To practice so that I could be like decent at
math and Dan didn't get that
and I don't like it. Maybe they did a little bit but they just you know it's like you have as a parent naturally more demands on your time when you have the second third kid. So I think it was they didn't get as much, you know, pushing / tutoring /, you know, you know, help in that way. And so I think I was a classic achiever for older kid, with a big chip on my shoulder and I'm like, am I doing enough to like achieve enough? I think.
Daniel was like classic like Middle Brother like a little bit in my shadow in my shadow and like resentful of that. And that also drove him obviously to do really big things. Well, maybe that's not the only I should say. That's the thing that drove him. But like, you know, I think that was that is something that he, you know, let's just say that I was super thrilled. When you know, when they sold Crews my brother's co-founded Crews and they saw Crews and GM 4 billion dollars. I was like that was as I was so happy. It was like, people, I remember one person. I was at a conference or something. That's me.
Like he was in Silicon Valley for like years, right?
Right. I'm not so excited
about. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We started coming together and so about four years and then people would always be like, your Justin's brother, right? As I was like out there is like, I'm doing the startup and I was like, very vocal and visible. And I think he hated that shit and then I remember there was one moment when we're at a conference, and somebody was like, are you Dan's Brother? And I was like, oh, there we go. It was a
turn. Does that play in an older brother? I've got three older brothers, and curious. If that plays in your head of yours,
Success. Does it go through your mind of? Okay, this is going to have its implications on all my family members.
Well like other gonna have some chip about it. Yeah. Either
that interpersonally with you or just I don't want them to compare themselves to to me when we're sitting around Thanksgiving dinner and, and potentially comes
up, you know, it's stopped. Always been like somebody, I think by default I was putting myself in the center of the universe, so it's like that has never crossed my mind to be honest. And yeah, go ahead. Yeah. I was just
My youngest brother Damien is he's like classic youngest Brothers, like he isn't finding a new axis of competition, you know? He is like no not interested in competing in the like oh I'm going to be the best startup founder or something like that. He's more interested in like climbing and like living his life. Like you know and I think it's like much more healthy in many
ways. Yeah that's
that's in although he did end up finding a company that's like pretty successful
which one is Damien
thought by this company called Shogun I think. Yeah, they just announced it was like
67 million dollars. That's huge Shopify. Yeah, the Shopify
apnea. Yeah, dude, that's awesome. I didn't know he was a co-founder Shogun.
Yeah. They start on my house like
Six years ago, something like that. Oh
shit, that's awesome. Yeah dude, the con brows I got to keep tabs on all three. There's just three of you, right? There's just three. All
right. Well I have a cousin. She's an HB s right now. I have a lot of cousins, have a lot of cousins, but one of my favorite cousins at HBS and she, you know, maybe one day she'll start start up, she's going against our okay. Well she's currently be a McKinsey consultant, I'll kind of like she was in startups and then now she's interning at McKinsey. Did you tell her it's a waste of
life? Yeah.
If you're listening to this episode, what's
her name? Ariel. Okay, official goes by
Victoria Victoria. Terrible idea to go and terrible idea. Terrible, especially if you think it's going to broaden your horizons and open doors. That is literally, what systems tell you to gobble you up and never let you. Would you ever consumed? No dude, I have absolutely no startup stuff. I don't have look of disdain. I love that dude. It's like it's like you know getting a PhD. It's basically just a corridor with a nanny.
Narrower Corridor within a narrow Corridor. Corridor of of just basically like, it's like Investment Banking. You go do the two-year analyst program because it's gonna open doors to be fair. I do think it does so many options on the other side of it. Yeah
people the I mean if you want to go into Finance you get
options. Yeah options. But then the options then it's like, now you do this other thing. Now you come go be a principal at a hedge fund is going to give you options. Then you you find yourself, you're 45. You're like fuck. I have
Quote unquote options and I've been chasing options the whole time. You know, instead of actually living life designing life being, I think, being useful. There we go, P. Sa ya. Consultants are the, I mean, you know, the adage is still steal your watch and tell you what time it is. Yeah. And so I think it's maybe it's interesting for a year or two, but as long as it's leading towards, or the realization that making something is better. I think that's a question.
Question, I have for you on the investment side in content creation site after Atrium. Do you think you're going to start something again and you're incubating ideas over
incubating ideas? But to be clear I do not the CEO of that. You know I got to work with Partners who have like a lot of guts and energy still you know I'm an old I'm old and washed up. I know Mike I'm like the drunk at the bar who is like a retired boxer who's got knocked out too many times that you know your draft into becoming the coach.
Yeah, you do.
Got ideas. I'm going to train Creed.
Yeah, that's right. That's awesome. Do you really think of yourself like that?
Or do you think? Yeah, for sure, man. I'm too I'm way. Like when like we sorta Justin.tv, I would have slit my own wrists to be successful. For sure. Like it was my whole ego. My whole identity is very unhealthy in many ways, but now I wouldn't like I'm like, I'm my life is great. I got a family, I spend time with my family, like I, you know, I didn't have those constraints when I was when I was a kid.
Did how do
you as a as a friend that thinks so deeply and it's trying to I think in a similar vein of my work with this podcast or investing in writing Elevate, the Consciousness around creation? How do you balance that mentality? You have with, I don't know. Next Tuesday, make an investment in a company, we like it. I kind of like that that founder.
Well, the honest truth is, everybody has to go through their own experience. You know, I can tell
But I always like to make you happy to be successful, but there's gonna be some percentage of people who need to figure that out on themselves. This is one of my favorite books is book called, Siddhartha. Have you read it by Hermann Hesse? A yeah? Yeah, yeah. Are so in the books and are they, as a kid that he doesn't know about? And then later in the later, part of the book is kid. He finds reunited with the kid and his kid is like, you know, you know, all this bad behavior and he's like talking to his friend and he's like, oh, why can't I teach my kid to avoid all these mistakes that I made.
Basically, he's like you can't like he has to go. You can't deprive him of that experience. He has to go live them live his life for himself. Hmm. So I think that when I invest in companies were the founder has, like a major chip on their shoulder and they have something to prove it's like, well, they got a discover for themselves. How, who might have deprived them of that Journey?
There's, there's a lot of Truth in that in its
What's the quote of full must percent persist in their Folly, to become wise? But is there, is there an ideal mindset that you'd say that you, that you will look at from the other side of the proverbial table as an investor. We like, okay, I really dig this person's mind
set. Well, I think it's people who are learning right, like somewhat of a, you know, a lot of people have something to prove but if they are, they have a mindset of learning and a growth mindset. It works in the beginning, it's like the bootloader like having something to prove works in the beginning, but eventually you get some, you get burned out of that and you have to find
The higher purpose for your work and some of the people have that in the beginning, right? Sometimes people think they have in they don't yet. That's okay, too. And eventually though every great CEO and I know has found has transformed from somebody who had a lot to prove to somebody who has a higher purpose for their work. And I think that is a natural transformation. So if I can help them you know, if you have a growth mindset I think they'll eventually get there so I can help them guide them in that direction. That's great.
You know what would be
Be an example in your mind where you seen that that transformation, they started with a certain set of reasons for striking the
company. Well, I don't want to say, like, it's hard for me to be like, put you on blast and be like, I don't think their reasons were like good in the beginning, right? Like but let me just say there's like a lot of deck of corn company friends that like I feel like that was a case where they started off with like you know they're just want to create a company and like have be successful which is not bad. Like that's most people in them, our society right thinking. Like if I'm successful in a lot of my
Also be solved. But eventually they turned into like, wow, I really care about this community. This being a leader being like, Oh, being building this product. Like, that's, you know, that's the thing that drives me more than any of the other like outside accolades or anything like that. And to me the most successful Founders who still run their companies. Make that transition
for our last question.
Since we last chatted and it was during my book launch was a lot that was a live event. So very pre-coated. What is the kitty walk me through the the emotional Arc with Atrium and and having to wind it down? How long ago was?
That was a year and a half ago here in Africa. We're like right before covid. Yeah.
So what was walk me through the emotional Arc of Atrium, even
Six months
before. Well I think that's when we last talked right? And so I mean it will even
before starting a trip like walk me through that emotional Arc of okay I'm gonna start something again and in all the way through to whining a doubt.
Yeah, I mean, I did so it's like excitement, right? You know, I was excited about this new idea, I love ideas and I started there was just like a huge stress and difficulty in terms of really making the business work, it's very operational. Intensive business.
I think I was like, particularly well suited for that or prepare for it and then eventually like, when you know, fast-forwarding, shut down, it's like usually people shut things down when they run out of ideas and we did not, I did not have any ideas for how to transform the business. To what I thought was a venture back about business, and it got to the point where it's like, the this is not a business, I would invest my own capital in so we should like shut it down to return the money because otherwise we're
just wasting money in my opinion and where you had an emotional low or was this?
No, I was just actually, I don't think I was in an emotional. I think I was an emotional.
Low years before that, you know? And so this was actually like, just more. This is a, if I'm being honest, right? Like if I'm being high integrity with like what I actually think and then this is the my truth, you know, I don't believe that this is a good business as it stands. And so then the right thing to do was shut it down and it was difficult. I was very sad. There's a lot of grief because I built a team that I really loved. But at the end of the day, I was like, that's the right thing to do is what it felt like.
Like
what were some of them? Some of the learnings that you reflect on afterwards for a few if you were to go back to you, I
think the most among. Yeah, the most important thing is just like start something. When you have the higher purpose, go time back to what I just said right now, you want to start something where you have a higher purpose, not you're not a mercenary or missionary because then when things like don't look like a great business or they're like things were going badly, like you're going to want to stick with you.
For other reasons,
what would you say to a someone that's listening us? And might say, well, you'd already sold a company for a billion dollars. And so was it out of just would you have been able to make that decision of? Okay, let's just wind it down. Walk away if
the maybe maybe not, I could be. Could have been
different has that informed, as that experience, informed. You're investing of second time, Founders. That have been wildly
successful. Yeah, I think I think I think I'm much more skeptical of investing in
Founders, just, I think a lot of people just want to invest in them, because they've done it before. And I think you really have to like, think is this person highly motivated are they?
You know are they working on a good business? They cannot. Yeah I think there's a lot of I would just still do the you know, check the boxes instead of being a getting caught up in the reality Distortion field. Right?
What is the ideal? This is so high level. So it's
Very hard to take this away for a listener to take anything away from this verbatim. But what would be the ideal if a second time founder that's been wildly successful for your skeptical of what would the archetype of the founder, where your seven minutes into the conversation? You like, okay, I really dig this type of individual. I
like, I really like the people who are humble, but their Grinders and they're like, they don't have a lot of ego. They just
It did like I'm this is my mission and I'm going to keep my head down and figure it out and those are the people who I think are, you know?
Build the best companies.
Is there someone that comes to mind that you
invested? Yeah, there's a couple companies recently that are like, kind of newly, you know, doing really well. Not newly. We're doing really well, but maybe more in the public eye, but my mat like a mash asselin from aalto. So co-founder of Altos the CEO and he was like that way. Just like heads down for figuring things out, you know, just like always learning from people around him but really at the end of the day but they do whatever it takes to like, get it to work. And he's like a very humble person, the same is true of like
One of my friends, Moses low, who sort of this company called has ended? Which comic strip for Indonesia and Southeast Asia and companies doing really well, similar things, just a very humble person who's like, always learning from people and just building like an amazing company one step at a time.
Mmm, it's really after the fact that I learned to love Founders. Yeah. So much more, but send updates, there's knocking things out.
And there's really little to no celebration around it, but it's just like whether it's a growth graph going up in the right knee. Like, you talk to them about it, and so nonchalant. Yeah. And there's no, there is no, he's growing hubris because you also have, I'm sure you have Founders in your portfolio, where you, you can see a growing hubris as they start to accomplish
more. Yeah, for
sure. And yeah, it's, which is a ticking Time Bomb.
Yeah. You want the people like
Humility is important because there's always things, you're gonna have to learn and like, figure out from that are hard. And if you are not humble about it, you're not like that's going to prevent you from having an open
mind. What is your, what would you say? And you all of your reflection for someone that's done so much? I know I said last question, but this will be the last one that said so much. Internal reflection transformation in so many ways. I would say, what is, what are your strengths and weaknesses? What are the things that you
Just now. No, you are not good at. Yeah, if you were looking at yourself to invest in your next. Thank well, you already said you won't start it. Yeah. Box that I would rather train train other boxers than go out
again. Yeah. So I my strength, you know, my strength is I'm a great evangelist for things like that's the number one thing. I'm great. Great evangelist. And I can catalyze people to into action, that's like the really the vice superpower. Like everything else is kind of like, I think I'm okay at a bunch of things and
You know, it sit and then they my weakness is that I is also a strength. It's like my strength is also I'm interested in new ideas weakness. I'm also interested in new ideas. Every I actually think everything that's a strength is also a weakness, right? Right. So like with new ideas, it's like I'm interested in new ideas, I'm open to new ideas but the prop downside is like it's hard for me to stick to one thing, right? With the which, you know, if you want to be great at something, you got to stick to something with the evangelism. It's like I'm great at recruiting.
People the the doubt and and catalyzing around an idea. The downside is like oftentimes I'm like drinking my own Kool-Aid too much, you know? And then it's like I'm not that that's a its own form of not being open to feedback in a way, right? If I have know, all the answers on like wow, this is going to be amazing business. Then I might not learn enough about like what I, you know, downsides or things that aren't working or whatever, you know. So
makes for a great great investor
Yeah, I think so I'm just trying to think is that true?
I think an evangelist and some of that loves
you idea saying yeah that's why I think I'm investing is very activating for me. Mmm. You know,
I think you're going to be, you already are great at but I think you're going to be despite losing your money with tilt, which
apologies. It's alright for
listeners, you can become friends with. You can stay friends with your investors, even cycle. Is there
Massa fish if they are sufficiently wealthy but that was the
The only money I had, I might feel a little bit, although some type of way about it.
I didn't know the time. But thank God, twitch did well. Well, yes, and thank you so much for your generosity of time and insight man. I love chatting with you and I hope to get you down here now, lay more. Yeah. More and more as time goes on. It may be permanently,
it'll happen, maybe. All right. All right. Thanks bro. Thank you.
