Hello friends, this Friday Saturday and Sunday, May 15th to the 17th 2020, my family, and I invite you to gather up, your loved ones and join us for a weekend learning lab. This is our first ever live interactive online event. Join us for the plan. Strong primer. Our team is usually on the road this time of year hosting week-long in-person Retreats which have all been postponed for now.
How do do covid-19? It's our mission to teach as many people as possible. The good news about plant-based nutrition as we slowly emerge from quarantine. It is more important now than ever to teach people how to strengthen themselves from the inside out with the power of plants during the event, you'll take part in cooking demonstrations, led by my sister Jane and my mother Anne will provide you with a grocery list of everything.
Thing that you'll need during the weekend so you can eat and make
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meals alongside and and Jane my dad, dr. Caldwell esselstyn jr. Will teach you how to prevent and reverse heart disease and will share his groundbreaking research. That really helped to launch This Global plant-based Movement. We also have special guests. Dr. Will be mr. Gut health who was last week's
Terribly, engaging podcast guests and the author of the new book. Fiber fuel will also have my near and dear friend, Adam sud. His story of transformation is nothing, short
of jaw-dropping.
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My guest today is one of the great Trailblazers in the plant-based space. In fact, he coined the term plant-based over 30 years ago. His name is t. Colin Campbell. Of course, you know him from his book that has sold over three million copies. The China Study you know, him from the documentary Forks Over Knives. And many of you from his repeat visits to our annual event plants.
For the past 65 years, he's been a courageous, true seeker and an Unapologetic truth-teller. Today's episode of the plant strong podcast, we talked about his definition of nutrition. What exactly is protein, which is better animal protein, or plant-based protein. How much fat should we ideally have in our diet? And we talked about to,
Released articles that Colin wrote which speak to his revolutionary idea that the best defense against covid-19 is, what is on the end of your fork.
In fact,
not only is a whole food plant-based diet, the best cautionary measure that we can take. It's also the most responsible to protect a strain on the hospital system, our global environment and the food supply chain, which as
No, has been severely compromised much to the shameful detriment of the workers and the Animals, the links to these two articles are in the show notes at plant-strong. Podcast.com but for now take the next hour and absorb this Rich information from my friend and Mentor T Colin Campbell.
T. Colin Campbell. I want to welcome you to the plant strong podcast cheese. I think the last time that I saw you Colin was on the holistic. Holiday at Sea cruise. Gosh, I think it was February 27th right before covid-19 hit us hard.
You know, it was a wonder that we weren't on one of those kind of ships.
No, it really was. And and, and this Cruise liner that we were on was an Italian cruise liner, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What
Well, what a time that was, so I would love to start out by saying and I want a boomerang around and get to this subject, but you recently have written two different articles, both about covid-19 and how nutrition may be. Our best defense against covid-19, which is kind of a novel idea. But if it's okay with you, before we, we kind of tackle that what I'd like to do is kind of revisit and start with
Um, of the kind of nutrition Basics a little bit because I think that so many people don't know some of the stuff, some of the really revolutionary stuff that you did in in The China Study. So I'd like to talk a little bit about that if you're okay with that. Sure. First before I do T, Colin Campbell, what does the T stand for Thomas Thomas and your son is Thomas
and I got two sons Thomas this is kind of weird and my
His name is Thomas
also. Okay and so and so tell me, so why is the tea? Why is it, why is it not Colin T? Campbell, why is it t column?
Well, my father is an immigrant and he's from the are chemical Clan as you may know from Scotland essentially. And for long centuries, the name Collin was always the first name given to the oldest child and the camera Clan. And so I was the first child to be born and my dad wanted me to the name. Collin only
Yeah, but he wasn't there when I was born. Yeah, so the doctor came around to put the name down my dad, he said there should be three names and my mom said okay, you know, put put my dad's name first and that was not exactly what he wanted. So I stuck with her Colin and kept the teeth.
Wow, well I love you idea. But yeah, yeah well it's so unique. Now you have been kind of one of these trailblazing
Cheers now for over 65 years and you've just, you've done some amazing stuff to basically go against the status quo and buck the trends. What what do you think is giving you the courage to go after the truth with such kind of like with such intensity.
Well, there's one very practical reason, namely I had active academic tenure, which is really become very, I've had some very strong feelings about that. I got tenure when I was only in my 30s, fairly young quite frankly. So I've had Ted. You're all these years that in turn is guaranteed by tenure academic. Freedom is guaranteed by tenure, and it's precious is precious had. I not had that kind of academic.
Freedom or tenure if your wealth had not time Dad, tenure I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you now. Hmm and important. But but the part of it that I get really exercised about is the fact that tenure in American universities has been declining intentionally. So now for decades and it's almost at the point. Now, it almost doesn't exist for a person unless they, you know, at the senior level, you know, the full
A certain year, that sort of stuff. There's only not in 2011, to only nine percent of the faculty were senior senior professors, let's say, full professors and academic tenure. I was one of the nine percent that was 2011. I've been us right now or can't be more than, I don't know what it is two or three percent. So what that, what that means for our country rip is that is shutting people down, who are suspected to be telling the truth and my dad.
He was very particular about that, you tell the truth. So whole truth and nothing, but the truth. So it was a combination of my dad's background, his advice and the tato.
Wow, well it's a shame that that is
That that's being reduced and because we're not going to have as many T Colin Campbell's out there giving us you know some of this this amazing information
unless you want to lose your job. Right. Right. Shoot your mouth off and get fired.
Yeah. Yeah. Well so in 2005 you came to Austin you were on the book tour for The China Study and I can remember going to one of your lectures at Casa de loose, which is that
Little macro biotic community. And there were about 35 people that came and you know what ensued over the next, you know, six, seven years, eight years with The China Study Forks Over Knives. How you you, literally Colin became a plant-based celebrity over the course of, you know, five six, seven years. This book if I'm not mistaken is now sold over two million copies, is that
correct? There's actually now over 3 million.
Oh my God, that's crazy.
Easy. That's crazy.
Actually it's been translated. Now, I'm 250 foreign languages, which I think
that is that is so. So is this exceeded all of your wild expectations,
what you're dead? You know, he and I are Partners as, you know? Yeah, and he gets he took a, he was on his own course, you know, like I am and it certainly enter. I mean, I've always been fascinated with our relationship. No, I'm on a personal level but on a professional level.
You know, he's he's looking at this whole question, you know, from a clinical point of view. Obviously. Yeah. And I'm from the scientific point of view, of course, they say hand and glove kind of situation.
So can I say I want to start by asking you this very, very simple question and I don't know what your answer is going to be. So I'm looking forward to it. And that is what is your definition of
nutrition.
Pretty straightforward. I thought a lot about that. Those of us in this particular area of science, we argue over a great deal, we argue a great deal about that kind of thing and so forth. But it as simple as for my say, it's the biological expression of food and other wheat food, obviously, we eat food and thereafter. The food is digested metabolized etc, etc. And that is what I call expression. This expression of the food through digestion and Metabolism,
okay?
So, the biological expression of food. Yeah, and then and then obviously depending upon what kind of food you're eating, it's going to express itself in our in our organisms, either in a healthy way, or a harmful way.
Correct. Right, right. Yeah. Okay.
Yep.
So, what would be your ideal prescription for maximum
Optimal Health?
Well, you know what? Yeah prescription. Yeah. That's, that's okay. Word. That's all a lot about that, too. We think of guidelines recommendation, cetera cetera. I'd like to think it was a goal and I can tell you why. The goal is to go, you know, the whole way. And that means Whole Foods plant-based, pretty simple, pretty simple. And that covers, when you say hole, and I would suggest that covers the idea of not adding oil.
For example, that your dad likes to talk a lot about which I support, but in any case, we don't, we don't need to add two fractions of plants, like oil, and sugar and stuff like that. So I say the goal is Whole Food plant-based. Now, the reason I say that go rep, I want to, I'd like to end this comment and that is that when people ask for me here, I have to go a hundred percent, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah you've heard a lot about that is had to ask me. Absolutely, I will say, yeah, that's the goal.
If you want to go part way that's your choice. I'm not here to dictate what one should do. And also I can't say that that every single person you know that people who don't quite go quite a hundred percent, they comes get a lot of benefit. There's science does not support the. I'd give a hundred percent is absolutely essential for every one on one end. On in other hand, why not do it because we go two hundred percent then your bodies adjust the food tastes great. Why would
Tease yourself with like the smokers was an extra cigarette or two just because you can get away with it and it doesn't make much sense. Yeah, but you say you're saying gold, then I don't have to defend it you know, in terms of science for every single person.
Yeah. So Whole Food plant-based. That's the that would be your prescription obviously, and your and your research going back to, you know, going to China going back. What 1970s?
Absolutely is indicative of
that.
Yeah, that's right. Yes, you know, I started out my Graduate Studies. Yes, pursuing a and I gave was exactly opposite. And so my so-called, my more professional work started in the 1960s with the NIH. Grant support. Yeah, goes back to that.
Yeah, yeah okay and I think that one of the things that your best
Known for is protein. And so I'd love for you to help us understand what what is protein.
Well, protein is a long string of pearls, so I can sometimes a long string of amino acids which are about 20 to 22, somewhere in that neighborhood and they could come in. All kinds of combinations. That's the order. When wish you find them, it's really an infinite number of possibilities.
So there is a certain arrangement in the amino acids, you know, that makes for so-called high quality protein and those that don't. So, we have these long strings of all wrap around a globule like that amazing molecule when you have a, just a whole protein molecule, and it's just just made of that. String of Pearls, the best way to visualize a string of amino acids of which there are 20 to 22 different,
John's right, right? And you mentioned a word, you know, quality protein. So in The China Study, you talk about how the most high-quality protein that has the greatest efficiency. I think is most readily absorbed. If I'm not mistaken, is animal protein,
correct, right?
But it comes, it comes with an asterisk next to it, right? Yes.
Try. Yeah, I tell you I took me up on that and I said, the qualities they intentionally, you know, that we have as a society. Whether in science are not a science, we tend to think that animal protein is superior, you know, higher quality. If you will that kind of word higher quality and but a technical sense there's film, there's a formula that's been used in nutritional science for many years back to all the way to the 1920s.
That actually determines quality of protein. And if one looks at that formula, you got to numerator and denominator. It's a percent of total protein being consumed that is retained by the body, okay? The higher the percentage retained by the body for prisoners. Zooming for good use that's so-called biological value or high protein that's called quality. What? Turns out the percent retained, we make the presumption that the percent retained its
All good stuff, right? When it realizes. It's not, it's really not but that concepts are stuck around from science as well as in the public for a long time, you know, animal produce higher quality. You know, because we you know when what we don't consider in that is incidental. We don't care if they do the effects of that protein.
You know, that protein was very high amount. We change if this wrong time, he can generate cancer production. Engineering support heart disease development, it can it can do all kinds of things, right? We don't put that in the calculation and somehow that old formula has been hanging around forever. Nobody really challenges it right? Right.
So so a high quality protein from animal products, doesn't equate to Greater health.
If anything it means less us, right?
Absolutely. Absolutely
right, right? And it also, which is it accurate to say that that animal protein? This high-quality high-quality protein, jacks up your levels of igf-1 insulin-like growth factor number one,
right? Absolutely. And that's that's good for growing kids. You don't want to go, I'm gonna go too fast that there's some risk there but nonetheless, that, that same
Hormone if you will also helps cancer cells will grow to, right? No, not a very good
idea. No, not at all. No, yeah. There was a, there was a movie back in the 80s called The Blade Runner. And there's a scene in there, where Rutger Hauer who plays one of. These kind of robots, says, the light that burns twice as bright Burns half as long. I feel that's kind of a similar analogy here with ya, animal
protein.
Got ya?
Yeah, I mean it's almost like like mother nature knew exactly what she was doing with plants and making making, you know, plant protein kind of like the Goldilocks version of protein.
Yeah, yeah. That's right. I mean, nature nature would pretty important Force.
And
pretty darn important for
us. Yes, right. It decides what it wants to do on us harms.
Yes, so if you had to come up with an ideal percentage of protein that you would say, people should be getting in their, in their diets. Would it be 5% 10% 15%? What is it? What is your studies showing you?
Well the the numbers on that, by the way, it go back, some many years is supported by pretty decent.
It's namely the minimum amount we need. That's the amount that's required in order to to replace or replenish. The nation would lose. So, the minimum amount we need for that purpose, called balance experiments is around five percent 45 percent of total protein. And when that's done experimentally, you do it on a group of people. But just to ensure that everybody gets enough, it was increased by two standard deviations.
In the olden days, maybe is just a little more and then you come up with so called recommended dr. Allowance RDA that recommended dietary allowance turns out to be in terms of percent of total calories, it turns out to be around 9%, eight, nine percent. And that mind you in a theoretical sense, that two standard deviation elevation of the minimum. Requirement means that theoretically 98% of the population are going to meet their minimum needs.
Okay, let's say all more laps that mean I'm just giving you the literal translation of that. So virtually everyone's getting enough protein when they are at eight, nine, ten percent. Even if it comes to all from plants, in fact, you know, potatoes don't have much protein, but even if you were to say ready for each of potatoes, only run eight, nine percent or so, you still be getting enough protein. So players have all the protein we need and we don't need a quite that way, we, you know, Whole Foods.
And then level of protein from Plants, may get as high as fifteen sixteen Seventeen eighteen percent or so, there's no problem. But if it comes in a form of animals, different story,
right in the form of animals and that high quality protein, right? And then it kind of Jack's you up and it messes with you. So what and what percent protein would you say? Most Americans are getting and and how much that is
Meat from animals. You have any idea.
Yeah, right. There's a government agency. That keep tractor, funeral, neutral composition of foods and estimates how much we're consuming and that's around from 11% for the 95 percent of population. It's around from 11 percent up from about 22 percent. You're sure, you know, some of the Paleo people can get higher, obviously, but you're talking about love the 22 percent, net range, more or less and the average is around.
17 and a half percent even approaches 18%, and of that of that about 75% of, that is coming from animal Foods.
Well, it doesn't surprise me because it seems to me like most Americans are not eating whole plant based foods. That's right. Yeah, yeah. And you look at the, you know, what the USDA Council puts out. And I think it's maybe, maybe what, six seven percent of their of their daily caloric consumption is coming from home.
Plant-based Foods,
something like that. Yeah. I mean about you're right. I mean that's yeah, noth-nothing little maybe a little more on average but still, it's very low.
Yeah. And what are you, are you a hundred
percent? I do you know something, I don't go in for all these kind of numbers all that much I can. Yeah, look at them in terms of trying to figure things out. But yeah, where's Mike for myself? You know, I've never one time in my life sit down and calculate how much of the different uses I consume. Yeah,
yeah, I don't go for that stuff.
It's funny, you know, frankly I never have either. I mean one time I figured out how much protein I consume than a day by you know via grams just because so many people ask me and I realize that what it was well over you know 70 80 grams a day not even thinking about it. That's right. Yeah. What about what about fat what would you say? Is there an ideal amount of fat that we consume? I know that you don't
Out these things, especially when you're eating a whole food plant-based diet. But for comparison purposes, I know, in The China Study, you kind of assumed or you shouldn't say assume you figured out that the average rural Chinese person is eating about 15 percent of their calories from fat and Americans are like 37 percent, right? I mean and so how does that affect Health in your opinion?
Well you have to go back to do something.
Reticle not really theoretical experiment with data. That some years ago, we knew have a need. We have a there's are certain couple essential fatty acid, we need to consume, you know, the Amelia 3 or omega-6, basically the combination in any case that's somewheres around 6% 7%, maybe that's show what we need. And so, I kind of leave the the discussion there, you know, on one hand, on the other hand,
You know, as far as the best diet is concerned, we have plenty of fat from plant Foods. You know, if you look at International level, a lot of, it comes from animal foods, but unfortunately, I would say that diets containing. Well, theoretically eight, nine percent fat is enough is enough. Of course, we go higher net ways. We know we're far far higher and a lot of it comes from animal foods, but actually the majority of that. Now, as you know, well,
Is coming from added oils, added oil. So there were there, we get into a problem, because most of those oils from corn stuff like that they're omega-6, raising a new discussion omega-6, a pro-inflammatory and their counterpart is Omega threes. Okay, so we need it nature. Had it that we should keep a balance of omega-6 to Omega-3.
Should be around 2 to 1, 3, to 1, maybe 41, something like that. It's a whole food plant-based diet. But in fact, we're like 20 times that. So we're consuming really a very pro-inflammatory diet, largely comprised of and Royals
As we hurt your dad and I are on the same page on that one there, you know? No oil, no oil. Yes, because most of us omega-6. Now, I have to say, I don't necessarily subscribe to that same formula for Whole Foods, right? I'm talking about plant foods that have you know much more oil like nuts, avocados or stuff like that. That's a whole food from my point of view and in reality. And I think that they really support this that those kinds of
Whole Foods with that oil in it, you know, it's not, it's a different ballgame, it's perfectly. Okay. You don't overdo it. Yeah, well don't overdo of any kind of food, but you're so there's a real distinction here between added oils and one end. No, no, that's not Whole Food lines. You that's a No-No on the other hand, you know, the plants that do have some oil and and they're oftentimes good. Yeah girl. Yeah.
The one of the things that I failed to ask you about here, when were talking about protein and I think it's probably what you're best known for within the whole protein universe is casing and which represents the majority of the protein in dairy products, right? Right, yeah. And is it fair to say that that you consider case?
Seen the number 1 carcinogen in the American
diet. Yes, I'm glad you asked that question. I know that's startling and it's shocking for those even people in science and I have to go back. In this case, to the official vile a safe method that is used by. The government have been used for Nell 60 years. It's called a bioassay method for testing carcinogens in which chemicals, cause cancer or stone. That's a laboratory animal study.
Is really what it is and what they do in that kind of study is, will have a control group with a suspect chemical, whatever it is that they have noted here in the control. There's no none of that suspect chemical. Then they do usually have another two, or three groups that have different levels of that chemical usually fed it like a hundred thousand times as high as what we otherwise get, right? So, all the information we get on so-called environmental, carcinogens, is coming from that bile acid.
Chemicals, ferret extraordinary levels, really high levels and then decides has to come back and sort of extrapolate that if there's an effect they have to extrapolate that that slope of the line, let's say back to the lower levels that you might be consuming but that time you lost all contact with reality we're at that point. Now in that system reason I tell you those details because the next person, if I put casing in their protein in there,
It causes cancer. Not at these, you know, two or three orders of magnitude higher it causes cancer at levels were going to be consuming
You're going for less than ten percent total protein or animal protein on up. That's what he starts seeing her really nice. Sharp line starting to rise. It's amazing. This was the annual Project without a doubt casing, without a doubt. There is, I've actually, there's three levels and three labs in the world who has work on this too and United States want to know, you know, Nations I spoken all three not may explain to them. Exactly my reasoning, you guys are keep on coming.
With this information about these chemicals causing cancer Nest a big deal. But she leaving out the most important thing of all right, it makes it brush, the brush of your stuff, you know, really?
Questionable to save my life.
Well, but it really shouldn't be that surprising when you think about it. Because what what is casein? It's a, it's a growth accelerator, right? That's put there by the mother
cow, right? Exact friends.
And I think as you so eloquently point out, I mean, if this was it was never meant for for, you know, for human beings. And so now we gobble it up and it's probably such a high quality protein, right? There's at
least a hundred percent of its use
Retained. Wow, 95% or something like that is really high.
So, okay, just for comparison purposes. If, if casein is ninety five to a hundred percent of it is used, what would it be like, chicken breast or something like that? You have any idea? Yeah, sure, it's
similar. I mean, animal Foods in general around, I think the lowest has maybe 87 88 percent up to, you know, 1995 to 200, something like that plant food.
In contrast, yeah, a little bit down the scale. They're not, they're not at that level. And from my point of view was that getting to kill illogical. Yeah. If you had it that way, we get we absorb maybe, you know, 70%, even less for some so yeah,
right. So in this case, getting a c-minus is the best score you can get when it comes on protein,
right? You know, the ideal protein is here.
Flush. Actually I've heard you say that before but why is that
we can so protein to replace our own needs, you know for protein or break proteins always break it down and replenishing itself and stuff like that. And so if we want to replenish everything, we get in the most efficient manner,
Well, why would we? We would consume the flesh that we're replacing exactly. Yeah, you know, that's up there you have it.
That is so. So, all right. Well, if we're on a desert island and we need we you know we got to eat each other. Well, we'll be in good shape, you know.
Yeah, a lot of my stuff started with working with kids and stuff. You're starving kids and trying to make sure.
Car approaching. There was, in fact at that time, a tribe in the nearby mountains were carnivores. They did eat people
are cannibals.
Yes. And I saw one of those guys when I'm near thinking about protein and stuff like this, this guy was almost like a homeless guy sitting on it. Now I was told everybody he was he was he was a carnivore. He met him. I thought that I was maybe a good meal. I don't know. Well,
no, well, it's so what you just brought that up and I want to transition to something. So you said car
Devore. So, you know, all about Adkins, you know, about South Beach, you know, about paleo Quito in the, the new kid on the Block, right? Because this this never seems to want to go away is, it's called we're calling it. The carnivore diet, where all you eat is meat, right? I mean, what is your opinion of these these diets and why won't they go away in? And how is it that that the science hasn't snuff these guys out Wang
ago. Well, actions for
One was proud of the fact he never published a 7 single scientific paper. He was proud of that, he was proud of that as wife even said that I read, she was part of the package, part of that. Anyhow, he published that book in 1973 and then reap up. And then he got kind of putting a background for a while by John McDougall and some other pritikin until about 1990. And then he came back with a new one. And so, his reaction at that time, I'm competitive as was two things. One is that he was reacting to the
No idea is beginning to rise at that time that maybe we should shift their diet a bit more turned vegetables. I know the politicians and industries in like that he came along because that's what he knew the public wanted to hear.
Is John McDougall is often said, people like to hear good things about their bad habits. Yeah. So have you guys came along and he did that but he had one more thing in mind. And I learned this from two of my students who attended my class at the Cornell knows those years. Those early years, the went to his Clinic. He had a chronic New York City and he had. So it was said, was told he had 30 chairs with people sitting in the chairs with drip, drip things in them in there?
Vain. Yep. And they were being told, here's how much he needed this vitamin that vitamin or some other vitamin. So here the wrong food, and then supposed to have in vitamin deficiencies and many of replenishing that with, that's the sale of a bunch of vitamin supplements.
That is the absolute antithesis to everything that you believe in
absolutely hundred percent
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I want to share your, this is one of your principals in The China Study and it's and it's principal it, maybe principle number one and is the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Can you just talk about that for a sec? The symphony. Yeah Contrition.
Obviously, that's not my I've got to give credit if so I understand to Aristotle who lives and a couple of Millennia ago, but that's kind of
Has nice breasts from time to time. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts and various kinds of Industries as well as other endeavors we have in life. But it really it really fits his nutrition idea really well and so I call that it was written in the book as you know and in 2013 I think came out called whole right. What a w in front of, you know, that that's akin to holism and holism in science has never been very well.
If there's a hot point it's a flash point because I always felt a chola SM, you know, obviously related to religious persuasion. Yeah, and so science of religion, Denault didn't match up that well, so sign is always wear red acid, even a use that word holism with an H. So, when I came along, I was thinking about it when I was writing the book, I really believe in the concept of holism for various and Sundry reasons. And I looked in the dictionary to look to see if the W spelling was correct.
I couldn't find that even on the Oxford dictionary of the Webster dictionary so I should shoot. I'm going to I'm going to put the W in and put a couple of parenthesis around it and that's that's my words results. Tell brother W and know they're coming back to the the evidence your for that which got me there to begin with it's abundantly clear to me even more now than ever that one really food. We're eating you know countless nutrients and nutrient. Life substance.
Isis, you could say a hundred thousand to Five Hundred. Whatever the number is is so many different kind of chemicals and they're not operating independently. That's a really important point and you have various ways. I can talk about that but they're not operate independently. When we consume their work, they work together in an integrated fashion for the most part. And in fact, it's so beautiful the way when you're, especially looking inside the cell where it has felt like, I felt like I spent most of my life.
Inside the cells is a complex thing. You should like your Universe. You can't see it with the naked eye but there it is. Got all your parts and in there, when you start thinking, about all these reactions and all these things going on in there, there's no way for the human mind to comprehend, no way to be able to describe exactly what's going on and and whatever might be observed us in a moment in time, it's going to change in the next nanosecond.
So it's a dynamic system beyond our comprehension. All that's happening subjet other. And when we start thinking about net contacts, that takes us away from what we have become used to Nest, thinking about individual nutrients, and what they do. When you get 570, get a whole new world of thinking, what, which for me enables me to, to explain the kind of things I see and helps me to explain it. The odds things that we see ya,
That's what it comes down to it.
Yeah. No, it is. It's a beautiful Symphony. And the way you started this story by sent talking about Atkins. And, you know, seeing these people that are, you know, in their chairs getting these IV, drips that have different different nutrients that are deficient in, is the that is, that is, that is sad,
very sad. Yeah.
Yeah. The, another one of your principles that I want to read because people some
For some reason or other we're just programmed to think that when you start eating a whole food plant-based diet, or I should say a plant-based diet, you're going to be somehow deficient in something whether it's protein, whether it's fat, whether it's, you know, different vitamins, minerals where you say, there are virtually no nutrients in animal-based foods that are not better provided by plants. I mean array her Ray. I
still say the same thing,
right?
You haven't changed. You haven't budged an inch of you know I love it. Let me let me ask you this because so many people that I run into and I'm sure you do as well. Say that they've got bad genes right and they got heart disease or hypertension or they came down with cancer because of a bad Gene in The China Study. You talk about these guys Richard doll and and Richard Peto from the UK that presented to Congress in 1981
Their findings showing that only two to three percent of cancers are caused. I think from nutrition. If that's fair well, if I'm James from. Oh God, I'm sorry. That's what I meant from jeans. Exactly. Right. Would you say that? That is accurate.
Yes, I would that two to three percent is was kind of a gift, something on their part, just to play it safe. And and then maybe there's a couple of cancers that are genetically
They stand, there's not much you can do about it, I think, but nonetheless into three percentage yet, probably pretty good finger.
So that means that night, almost ninety Ninety, Six ninety, seven percent of cancers out, there are lifestyle and environmentally created,
right? I haven't new way of saying that not so new, but just to make a distinction, you know, the cancer industry by the way, why Steve described and you'll find yourself in their website, whether it's a
The American Cancer Society or NCR whatever you'll find right on their website. Cancer is a genetic disease. Okay, that's what they say. I say no, it's a nutritional disease disease. The genes are there to start the business like they start every year, everything else there there that's a basis but whether or not they do damage, your don't do damage is basically controlled by nutrition.
Yes, that's really what it comes down to. So, with that, thought in mind, go back to what you first asked, you know, like two or three percent, being just genes, or genes only even for me, I don't, I think there's some fancy rare cancer. I can't remember the name of it. Now at the moment that when people have that, most people really do get that cancer, but it's really rare.
Well, it's just, it's remarkable to me to think about the percentage of people that are coming.
Down with cancer in America every year. And I think if I'm not mistaken, the numbers or something like fifty percent of men and women will come down with a cancer in their lifetime, and to think that
The vast majority of these are our cause because they are unfortunately, nutritionally illiterate and they're not following what you would prescribe, which is a whole food plant-based
diet. Yeah, absolutely.
And and to me it, you know, one of my you have so many amazing quotes in in Forks Over Knives. But to me, the one is where you're standing in front of the Capitol, I believe it is. And you say, Do You Realize
That we could cut our health care costs by 80% literally almost like that. If we could just get people to understand nutrition and then apply these principles of nutrition 80%, you still hold true to that.
Yeah. And by the way, since that time, I mean, I got some of this from your dad. So I worked quite frankly, you know that study, he published in 2012,
Yep, we had a hundred and he started out was, I guess 398 or something like that. He was able to phone and talk to and a hundred and seventy-seven said they were sealed following his advice or okay. Yeah. And only one of the hundred seventy seven. You had an event. A serious event like that. Well do the count do the math? I mean there's a easy math then at least 90% seems like to me just to throw a number out there on people's heart disease can in fact keep under control, reverse it
And, you know, for all practical purposes, they don't see evidence of it, I don't know. I mean if you combine that ever that information are together with the correlation studies,
You know, word at the very bottom this is just an even smaller consumption of animal food, brings to the risk for certain cancers. That so I think I feel very, very happy with that estimate up to 80 percent figure. Yeah, you know, I don't see anything wrong with that may be sire. Who knows?
I think you're right. I think, I think it probably would be higher and is it fair to say that? Whether it is heart disease,
Type 2 diabetes obesity, some form of dementia. Alzheimer's that
That a whole food plant-based diet.
Basically help us prevent all those nuts. There isn't one diet for one disease.
Well, that's what we told in the gender studies. You probably know I mean we just went through and picked out a half a dozen different diseases for which I could find some evidence. Let's say yeah and that was a 2005 or wrote at the time that suggested that all those diseases should respond and somewhat similar way, maybe not the same extent but Reese respond. And
Invest. So we put the book out I actually did. Say at that time I didn't want to be too dogmatic about this darn thing. So I just sort of said you can find an error that you don't need to list all my, all my stuff, just try it. Yeah. And I did that part because your dad because he had done that, of course John would do well had, you know, done his thing, Dean ornish I've done in there, things that I knew all the three of them and some others. And so I just I felt pretty comfortable.
You know, even pay, even if I didn't have the data from us strictly scientific point of view. This is just as likely to be true since then. When you know, I'm sure, you know, this since then, you know, talking around, give their presentation, we do. The number of people have come up to me.
Well Center was tears in my emotionally. They don't necessarily want to talk about in front of other people. TJ tell these Amazing Stories.
You know I mean yeah you can say a Sanic Doran at not an essay published but it's such a broad effect. Yeah. It's such a broad effect. Yeah. Now
the proof is in the plant putting there for sure. Yeah. Yeah, diabetes, heart disease. Obesity you know almost all the chronic Western diseases just basically who wiped out and and as you talk about in The China Study, it's not I mean this this way of eating a whole food plant-based
Diet. It not only prevents these diseases from happening, but also, if you have them, you can also basically Holt them or reverse them.
Yeah, I like the word treat treat, you good. Your dad is a reversal reversal. Yeah, yeah, I did that too. I can't remember. But in any case that word reversals a good word it's kind of a safe word. I would take I'm going to take a leap forward and
And use the word that's used in the medical profession just to call to their attention. Hey, you guys are using all those drugs to treat people? We got a better formula. We can treat with nutrition.
I like that a lot. So yeah, so let's come back to where I started this whole conversation which is you've written two articles in the last couple weeks, both regarding how to flatten the curve with covid-19 and how you
that the the ticket here, the the weapon it is not remdim severe, it's not Hydrochloric or Quinn, you know, it's not that it is something as simple as what
It's as simple as this question. We've just been talking about for, you know, degenerative diseases. It's incidentally, we don't we know this. I know certainly from the scientific Community. There's been a great reluctance to talk about the effect of this whole food plant-based. Diet, let's say on fluke, you know, viral diseases. It's kind of been missing about. Yep. And we don't have, you know, a really really substantially evidence to show that does that stroke. And so there's been there's been a number
Our minds, I guess you could say, almost subconsciously. All this doesn't apply to viral diseases, kind of thing. Well, you can't you have to listen to somebody saying that because you don't have any evidence to prove otherwise when in fact it turns out that we collected data in China and our China Study now over 30 years ago on four different viruses, really significant viruses, one of which we studied in some great depiction.
Detail actually published some that are in that information. That's the Hepatitis B virus can cause liver cancer and all the viruses have one you know, viruses do they bury great deal in the kind of symptoms they produce all over the map you know they cause all kinds of Bishops and problems and stuff like that when we the realest symptoms. Okay. But they also have something in common that people tend to forget about and the commonality is the mere fact. The idea that these viruses they come in, they can
For a reproduce themselves, they come into our bodies, they use our equipment in ourselves to actually be able to reproduce. They may be partial DNA, partial RNA, whatever they said. They're using our normal cells and to reboot it reproduce themselves, that causes that really a mess, you know, in cases and research problems. Hmm. So the question then is all the viruses are they basically provoked?
The body to defend yourself.
What what how do they do that? Well, one of the principal ways not the only way but one of the principal ways that reformed antibodies
I mean that's pretty consistent for all viruses basically and other you know, bacteria and so forth and so on. And so what we measured in China was the production of antibodies to the Hepatitis B virus and then we had an opportunity and we also look for the antigen that's that's the virus that's not yet near the nation virus has the Daniel, you know, the dangerous stuff. So we had an opportunity to investigate, our collect information on the antibodies, and antigens amongst the total of what
Have to be 8,900, people located a hundred and seventy Villages across China Taiwan. And I had those data from years ago and I just was this all this vacation. Now, I went back and got some of it because we actually did focus on it at the time and took that information back to my lab and studied that in some detail in terms of what it actually does and how it relates to it and the combination of the two.
The combination of the effect of the viruses During the infectivity period, you know, in the formation of a community, that's one thing and the other is the cut, the effect of the diet on the expression of that virus. Once it's absorbed members. How does that translate itself into this case? Liver cancer? Something else? So there's two parts of that story. The virus comes in. It can be deactivated, that's one way the other ways they can do its dirty work.
So what we found and it's really impressive. The people consuming more vegetables and plants by birth time, and whatever you want to study. That was highly significantly correlated with the production of antibodies. Whereas, in contrast, the the production of liver cancer in that case, which is the effect of the hepatitis. Yep, that is increased by animal-based foods and that's what we will take back to the lab and we found out
Out at that. In fact when you transfect a mouse with the virus that's converters, genes to the biology informs liver cancer. You can do that. It turns out that what, what has a major effect on that? Just like an environmental chemical idea, the animal protein, promotes it.
Hey, so we had we have two kinds of data now that are mutually supportive and and in that the stuff and in the field, it's equivalent to statistical significance. Significance of P 001.
In one chance in a thousand is wrong. Wow. I'm not talking about just a casual observation, I'm not talking about this relationship being explored in different ways.
And then, you know, a have a statistical significance to go with it. Now, coming back to the idea that there are some general common properties.
Hi, I'm Brie I took care of allowed to say this because I'm very sensitive topic these days. Yep, but I'm basically, I'm saying the evidence we have for some other reason to. I want to hear the evidence. We have really is the way to go for this business,
right? Right. Well
very much. What the was presently being offered? No, well, very much
and you look at what is it? 90 97.
Of the people that have perished from covid-19. I've had some sort of an underlying health health condition. Some comorbidities going on in large part, probably because they've been men eating the standard American diet, right? And and they don't, they have as we talked about in the very beginning, they their nutrition that they've been feeding themselves as been basically feeding disease and not
And then they get hit with this this, this covid-19 and and they just can't stand up to it, right?
That's right. I mean most of those people who are dying or compromised especially like you just said, yeah. So it's and it's the same formula for both those. Those comorbidities as it is for the virus itself for the whatever we have.
Yeah, so is so so really the best?
Best way to defend yourself, not only from chronic Western disease but also this pandemic potential pandemics that are coming down, the pike is we got it, we got a as a as a nation we should collectively be pivoting to a whole food plant-based diet. It's amazing. What it will do. You know as you said in Forks, Over Knives, right. 80% of our three point, nine trillion dollar health care, bill would probably potentially go away.
Right in a matter of years we wouldn't be as it was exposed to covid-19 and think of all the good we be doing for the planet, right? Exactly. It's it truly, it seems like it's the Silver
Bullet.
Yeah, I wouldn't call yourself about. That's the bad or Magic Bullet, you know as one thing at a time but you know yes it's like a social call.
Earth Quaker. I don't start. That's not a good one.
Yeah. It's a seismic Revolution,
seismic Revolution.
Yeah, yeah. That's one of my father always likes to use. Yeah, it's grotesque for them. Yeah, let me ask you this column, what's going on with Nelson and Thomas and Leanne. I know these are all some of your children that have filed in your footsteps and in her just like I have with my father and are doing really, you know, good work in the in the field.
The plant based
movement. Well, Tom, is he going on? He was an actor by trade or profession, but anyone who got his MD now he's a, got a nice position position University of Rochester Medical Center and he just came out with a paper. By the way, you doing some research, in this going down this road, he just came out with the papers a case control study on a man, sitting down years old, who was overweight hypertensive. You know diabetes, he was
Headed for dialysis actually and he put him on a whole food plant-based diet and the results were amazing. Yeah. And that's bad was published in the British medical journal just here, last December. So, he's doing that, unfortunately. This covid thing is really screwed up hospitals at the moment, Medical School said, it's horrible, what's happening there? So that's what his game is. He gives lectures around. I think very good washers and he's got, somebody's got to study on breast cancer patients as well.
And then the older son Nelson, as, you know, he's got, he's got some really good stuff going. He's gotta, he founded it network of communities calls pods and he did that film my pair of nation. And yeah, we got some and we, of course, have our own online course that you have been involved in. Your dad's been involved in that were kind of proud of is to really go
Oh well it's a number one online course at the University actually wow named so that that is to go that's what now our daughter the end who has really had acquired an exciting program in hers and Dominican Republic. Hmm. You know and Bob and the environment and you know working with people down there and she's now the strategy person for the for that.
That group rice. And so, yeah, they're all three involved in it up to their eyeballs full-time and
you must, you must be so
proud of him.
You know why I'm happy to? Yeah, I mean we yeah we're going and general direction we argue sometimes back and forth, I'm just like anybody else. But but yeah, it's a total story. I think, I think, you know yourself. I mean, this this thing is a is a big story in a sense that involves not just, you know, making a person feel well and recovering from disease, but also,
Environment cost of healthcare. These are Big Ticket items.
They really are and it's all just comes down to deciding. What to eat, we've got off track.
We've got off track,
we sure did get off track. Let me ask you this column, what what it, what are you most excited about right now? Is there anything that you're working on that you're just like, you know, gets you up at 6:30 and you're jumping out of
bed.
Yeah, II don't know II think this covid-19 is kind of interesting. I just got a phone call just a little while ago few hours ago from a good friend in China and of all things is kind of ironic that the information we have on that came from China. Hmm. I still maintain some really good relationships. One of my really good friends has got a coalition of 13 universities in China. We're very excited about this. And so I think I want to carry that story is that
Story forward. Yeah, not just for whatever our site is actually people are suffering. Yeah. You know, they're suffering and I think and we're paying a big price economically and socially. It's ridiculous. It's really ridiculous. I know we have to do social distancing and we like to do. We have to do, I mean, I do that, we do that ourselves, that's not the issue, but that's we can't go around the rest of our life, looking to the Future.
You know, putting a face mask, every one, every two or three months. That's crazy. That's not work. So I don't know. I'm compassionate about. Get the stud. Getting that information out there. Yeah, yeah. But how, whatever
happens. What did you have for? What did you have for breakfast today?
Oh, a minimal. This time. I usually have the oatmeal but this morning just had some
fruit. Yep. Have you had lunch yet?
Yeah, we did. Had salad. Now, you rabbit food. Just
You do
ha, ha, ha, nice.
Nice. Oh no, never have it will have a decent meal you know later today?
Yep. Yep. Full meal. Yeah. Well Colin, I really appreciate the time today. I want you to know how much
You have inspired me on my journey, you know, starting with, when I first met you in 1991, when my father hosted the first ever conference on the elimination of coronary artery artery disease and Tucson Arizona. Yeah, and, you know, I can't thank you enough for the relationship that we've had over the years, and you being so generous with your time and coming to plan stock, I think six or seven times but you know, you really have paid, go ahead,
you know,
Say, you know, that that sort of got interrupted in a way out? Yeah, your perspective. But that came right at the time. We're always planning our summer vacation. Yeah. She's a little bit difficult but
that's a yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you have paved the way for so many people and it is I think it's because of your courage and and your resiliency and your, you know, your steadfast dedication to the truth that all of us are truly standing on.
On the shoulders of you and my father and John McDougall and and you Pioneer. So I want to thank you for for making making the world a better place because of what you stand for and not compromising and not following the status quo you are. You are
something special. Well, thank you very much. I just say the same thing about your
dad. All right. Well, Colin until I see you next time.
Me here.
Peace.
Okay. Peace. Turn it around engine, too.
Plant strong.
He's 86 years, young and still going strong. I love this man. Thank you. Colin for devoting your life's work to nutrition education and shooting straight As Colin likes to say, the best way to defend yourself against this and all disease is to Pivot to a whole food plant-based diet, the evidence and the research is there, won't you join us for resources? Visit plant-strong.
Dot-com, the plan strong podcast team includes Lori quarter, which Amy Mackey. Patrick Gavin, Wade, Clark, and Kari. Barrett, I want to thank my parents dr. Caldwell be Elston jr. And and cry less Elston for creating a legacy that will be carried on for generations. And being willing to go against the current and trudged Upstream to the causation. We
are all
better for it.
