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Dr. T. Colin Campbell on the Future of Nutrition
Dr. T. Colin Campbell on the Future of Nutrition

Dr. T. Colin Campbell on the Future of Nutrition

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Matt Tullman, T. Colin Campbell
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Jan 28, 2021
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Episode Transcript
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0:31
Hi, this is how this is Kareem.
0:33
Hi, this is Katie from Washington DC. And your listen. Do me every radio.
0:46
Dr. T. Colin Campbell. A man who needs no introduction, especially not for our audience. I'm certain of that. But just briefly to say, you've been studying medicine and nutrition and food and health for what the better part of six decades. And I think for the vast majority of the people listening, probably of red one or many of your book. So with that, thank you so much for the opportunity.
1:16
To speak with you this afternoon. We're so excited for this opportunity.
1:23
No, thank you. I briefly just lost. Lost your voice. I'm back again now. So I okay heard it most of what you said, but that's okay.
1:32
Well, you know, your history better than I do. So I'm sure you don't need to hear it again. But let's let me let me start by just saying how how important this moment is for me because I have to say, you know to say this is a dream come true would be alive because I never would have dreamt that I'd be.
1:52
And you my journey to a plant-based diet actually started with The China Study as it turns out and he my uncle face the terminal cancer diagnosis, when I was in college and their doctor said, there's nothing we can do for you, you know, go home and, and prepare your Affairs. And again, I was in college at the time, but they decided that they didn't want to do that and they stumbled upon your work.
2:22
And The China Study. This was about 15 years ago and they transition their whole diet and had some great successes with a raw vegan diet. Battling what was stage 4 terminal cancer and that left such an impression on me that even in college in Texas, at the time. I start eating a vegetarian diet and and leaves us to say it's really kind of propelled my whole career. And now here we are. So it really is sort of a full.
2:52
Circle thing and and thank you so much for the work you've done. And again, the opportunity to talk today.
2:59
Thank you. By the way. What happened to your uncle? Did I miss that?
3:03
Well, it's an ending that I don't usually include in the story because I think you would agree. But I believe he inevitably died of chemotherapy. So the the sad ending is that they actually saw the, the tumors receding. He was a Vietnam veteran, and was exposed to agent orange, and the cancer was all over his body. And so, again, there was no real course of care.
3:34
They were proposing. So they went for about and, and they, he was given weeks if months to live right. And, and in pursuing a whole food plant-based diet. They actually saw great successes. Like I said, regression of the tumor sizes, as well. As you know, I think it was something like six, seven, eight months. Everything was going really well, right? As you know, it was because
4:03
He was finally eating in a way that worked for his body. Unfortunately, they took that to the oncologist and the oncologist said, you know, well you're doing your thing. I don't know about that. But what I do know is that we have these other tools. So why don't we give it the double whammy and and do a course of chemotherapy. In addition to all these dietary changes that you are are pursuing and
4:33
As my aunt tells me and again, you know, the details are fuzzy for me, but he fell into a coma almost immediately after starting chemotherapy and passed away just after that. So it's hard to say what would have happened? Had he not done chemotherapy had, he continued just to pursue the, the sort of detoxification the new lifestyle that he had embraced, but that is a story that I think.
5:03
Quite often in my work.
5:06
Let's try really quite an amazing story. You know, I've heard similar kinds of stories like that. And I know you didn't, this is not the purpose of conversation and we can go over if you want. I don't have a limited time. But but in any case, you know, we haven't done research like that and Medicine forever. Almost. That's a big story in itself is part of the story of my new book.
5:33
That I have and it's really sad. My younger son who was a co-author was near The China Study. He's a physician. Now. He actually has a study underway with Advanced Breast Cancer with women on a whole food plant-based diet. And it's been is going as so far. It's going quite well, I would quite frankly. I agree with your suspicions. It's very sad, but that's
6:03
What tends to happen chemotherapy is not what a lot of people like to think it is, but doctors in turn, haven't been trained in nutrition. So they tend to discount it. That's the problem. Alright, enough of that. Yeah.
6:17
Well, yeah, thank you. And it is a tragic story. And, and like I said, it's really motivated so much of what I do now, I then lost grandfather to heart disease.
6:33
Is man in supporting his end of life care. I was really exposed to just how scary the inpatient setting can be. And that's really when I decided to dedicate the rest of my career to trying to get the word out, about these different ways of healing and frankly the way that we all should be eating, you know, and anyway enough about me.
7:04
Yeah, so so I guess just to take a step back and start with with the beginning for you. I know this was in the 1980s. I just have a couple questions about your work early on and then I would love to speak more about where we are today and the new book you have and sort of where you see us going in the future. But something I've always been curious about because
7:33
I can't imagine the sort of social pressure that you were facing when when, when looking at that data that you accumulated in China in the 1980s. And when you were beginning to publish your work and I'm just curious. Did you ever consider sort of going with the flow, ignoring the findings? I mean, I know you grew up on a dairy farm. So it must have crossed your mind. At least, once that, perhaps, it would be better for your own career. If you didn't, you know.
8:03
Rock the boat. So to speak. Did that ever cross your mind? And what were some of the considerations that you were thinking about
8:09
across my mind continuously and never stopped. You're right. I was raised on a farm and so I was above an opinion at that time, especially when I want to wait to graduate school that the opposite was true. The more meat. We eat, the more high-protein, we eat, the better, we are going to be. And so, you know, some of that story eventually though. I started my research career.
8:33
1960s, actually before that the 1950s, but I've heard this a long time. And it's so, when I got the form of research program going with NIH and that was in 1969 to be specific by the time that 1980 or so rolled around, and I was on a national panel on the whole question for certain diet nutrition and cancer. At that time. I was becoming rather convinced that our work was going in the direction that, you know, diet was important clearly.
9:03
Lee and so what the problem I faced primary it was this much socially. It was professionally because in my profession, you know, they don't entertain ideas like this and that was on this National panel at the time and I was pretty prominent, you know, the news and stuff like that or was in Washington or Nest. Your good policy given testimony before congressional committees and stuff like that. So they really took it to me. It really took it to me and tried to throw me out of my Society. They all kinds of things.
9:33
So talking about pressure, it started and continued for all the years since as far as going with the flow is concerned. When I saw it, I guess, I thought about it in theory, but I never intended to not go tend to go where we're going because Mike, that's what our research is showing. And so by 19, late, 70s, 80 or so. We always start to change their diet. We did a gradually, I had
10:03
A wife who really bought into this? We had children, and she really changed our diet a lot. And so, it took about 10 years. So, whatever social pressures were concerned. They're there. I know they're there, but there's something more important. You, I just stay with what I believed. What I saw to the
10:24
show.
10:26
So I want to come back to the slow transition that it took you ten years. Like I said, I was vegetarian for many years, but just one more question that I've always kind of wondered. You know, when when you look back at the last two decades, three decades, even since the publication of The China Study, are you proud of the progress that we've made? Or are you surprised? And maybe just
10:55
Appointed that despite the overwhelming evidence, You know, despite the clinical science despite all of the doctors creating these incredible outcomes. We still don't see, you know, wide-scale change as much as I would have hoped certainly and you have a much better vantage point over time. So just curious to hear your thoughts.
11:20
Well, it was a night. Let me go back for a little bit and I think was 1978-79 by the
11:25
Way when I was on a national panel again, and I was asked at that time of the pain, when I was on, it was a butcher oncologists and Pathologists. It was in Washington, and we did some story started to emerge a little bit about nutrition at that time, certainly in our work. And so I had to explain that, I didn't want to use the word vegetarian. I'm the one who came up with the die. The word I have faced. That was a 78 79. So at that,
11:55
Time then going forward. Forget what? Your first question was.
12:03
Well, just generally how you feel about the progress. We've made with the lack of progress that we've made depending on depending on how you
12:10
feel. Yeah, I forgot. But in a case, like the reason I told you, let that was story because it was kind of strange to be honest about it. And late, nineteen, seventies early eighties, even think about the possibility of using nutrition is using to Tricia's explanation.
12:25
That kind of disease. So it was not know, let's say that way. There was a small group called vegetarians. It's a time. I didn't pay too much attention to them. They, they were credit opposed to my work on the campus Because I was usually experimental animals, they didn't like that. So they actually were demonstrating outside of my office in my life, to be honest about it. So, I had to put up with that kind of Faith finally went rolled around, let's say in the 1990s.
12:56
Then the New York Times came out with their article, which featured the story. There was a lead article and they news. Other news with the time and dentist didn't need. A lot of people knew. I had become a quack by that time, say the least. And so I knew then that the big and idea and that was the first time I heard the word vegan, there was just coming into play. It was, oh no. Nobody was really saying that seriously.
13:26
And so since that time, now is 30 years ago. Yeah, I've seen a lot. I've seen quite a lot of changes usually refer to as plant based as opposed to veganism or vegetarianism. So in terms of percent of the population is said to be about three times now than what it was at that time. It was almost done. So I don't know what 3 times 0 is. But so it's been slow and
13:56
It's been slow and part necessarily think of my new book. By the way. It's been slow in part because of the way institutions and the way history has played into this. I mean, it's never just the idea of nutritionist not better, very well-known, very popular idea.
14:16
You know, doctors don't get trained in nutrition. There's not a medical school in the United States. It is where they teach nutrition. So the doctor says, the public knows them. They have got no training nutrition. They're trained to treat illness and primarily through the use of pharmaceuticals or drugs. So nutrition kind of strange to them. So it's been slow going to be honest about it. It's been slow going, but still, I think we're making progress a lot more to be made.
14:46
And I talked about my notebook, but getting there. It's actually people like you. I mean, that's really, it's happening at the level of the public people. Just getting interested in discovering that this thing really works, but we haven't done a very good job in my science and we haven't done a very good job at the national level is its of ours, government or political issues are concerned because we're running against it, we're running. I guess they're huge.
15:15
Industry, the running against the livestock industry were running, against the pharmaceutical industry to say. Nothing of the hospital is the whole Hospital industry.
15:28
Lot of forces, lot of forces, and they're the ones who control politicians, so
15:33
it's tough.
15:35
I want to, I want to hear a little bit more about that in particular, but a couple questions. And by the way, I've followed your work. Like I said, since the beginning of my career and even before when I was in college, you know, and I never knew that you came up with the word plant-based. So we got to get that word out. We got to let people know that you were your the innovator behind that term.
16:02
Actually, there's been some surveys done on that, especially in Industry because now, the word really has been used a lot. Absolutely. I just saw a graph recently that from about 1915. I think not that won't go there. Really has been an object and he said, word across the country and around the world. To be honest about it. Is it The China Study by the way, has now been translated into 50 foreign languages.
16:31
So it's getting around. Yeah, that's a happening.
16:36
That is to say the least, 50 languages. It is getting around. I'm curious to go back. You know, you change your diet over the course of 10 years. How do you recommend folks? Today? If you do recommend people, eat a plant-based diet. Do you recommend? They go slow and gradual maybe not 10 years, but or do you encourage?
17:01
People to go 100% overnight.
17:05
Well, if they're, if they're ill, if they've got problems, I'll put a hundred percent figure.
17:11
Because you know the diet does work pretty fast within days. We can see major changes. So for those folks. Yes, I say to get, you know, go there, stay there, other people. I kind of leave it up to people, make their own decisions. But the thing that I like to mention what people don't know is that when they first start using this diet, yes, kind of foreign they you know, they're slow getting into it. I'm not sure I can do it in such a sector, but the interesting thing is that
17:41
After about a month, it's a really stick with it. Less a month, maybe two months or so, for most people, but that time their preferences for Taste change.
17:52
And all the suddenly discovered their start craving a salad. If you understand what I mean and they start is they start losing their taste. For other kinds of foods are usually sugary, salty, oily and pretty soon next starts to go away. And so and I think a lot of people don't necessarily know that that can actually happen as useful to tell people that stay with it and you'll see some change in C in addition.
18:22
To the their Improvement
18:24
health.
18:26
Yeah, no, I I can testify to that. It is it is remarkable. I crave, you know, a smoothie for instance or a salad as you said. And certainly I never used to do that. But I just know. I can feel it when I go to many days or too many hours without some fresh fruit or some fresh vegetables. You know, it's almost like you crave that refreshment, you know, because I certainly am.
18:57
Liable to eat some of the more newfangled Foods, you know, the, the miyoko Cheese's, or beyond meat and what is your take on those newfangled Innovations, as I call it? You know, the the Cheese's I'm not talking about cellular agriculture. I'm not talking about lab-grown meat because that is fundamentally the same biochemistry. As you know, animal agriculture, write this stuff on the Prairie.
19:26
So I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the pea protein, some talking about the soy-based. I'm talking about the innovations that we've created to replicate The Taste but, but they are plans. How does that fit in? You know, what? Can you what do you believe personally and what do you strive for in your own diet? But just love to hear your thoughts on how you think that plays into the the healthiest diet you can eat.
19:56
Well, as far as the protein is selfishness is concerned, surely those kind of proteins, the plant-based proteins. They're going to be better. There's no question about that. If we want to just focus on exactly that. That one nutrient, on the other hand, the foods that are being made, the so-called think mates, or if you will, there are being made was plant protein stuck into them. That's its kind of step in the right direction.
20:25
But it's not necessarily a big achievement because they throw in a lot of other stuff in there too, maybe the extra oil and salt and whatever, you know, GB give it the kind of flavor. They want to do whatever they want to do. And yeah, I can say, it's a step in the right direction, but it's not going to be the same as you see in the whole food to begin with. So we I really know, you know, does that improve one's Health 80% 90% whatever.
20:56
It's a step in the right
20:57
direction.
20:59
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23:35
I'd love to hear more about your Vantage Point. Again. You have such a longitudinal view of this movement and of society's relationship with food and now your latest book, you know, it's funny. I remember after reading The China Study. I'm a political science major. So, what I'm doing, running businesses, I don't know. So, you know, I guess I wasn't very good at school. Anyway, that wasn't
24:06
I wasn't for me love learning, not graded, organized education. But but so after reading The China Study, you know, the the Deep sort of questions, that remained were exactly what you answered in the book whole right to understand the Dynamics and the sort of power struggles between institutions that can. So, you know, kind of
24:34
influence are eating, you know, so I'm really excited now because I have a feeling that your next book, your new book, right? The future of nutrition is going to answer the bigger questions. Now that I have about the relationship between Healthcare and food, so I'd love to hear a little bit more about that and you started to say, you know that it has so much to do with, you know, big Agriculture and the pharmaceutical companies and the hospital systems.
25:05
I'm curious, if you could expand on that and maybe I'll just give you one pointed question to start with. And that is, what do you think if you had to identify just one thing, one impediment to this transition where one day doctors will actually be saying, you know, you need to get healthy and you need to eat these these foods not those Foods. What do you think? That one biggest thing? Or maybe it's one or two, big things that
25:34
That keep us from that future where doctors use food as medicine.
25:41
Well, for one thing, I'm happy to hear your input equal science. You take some lessons from that. So I got your three answers, but one thing for sure that you may be familiar with, in 2010. The Supreme Court passed are approved. That's that case was citizens united. Sure, you may have heard of that case where they, the opportunity was then made available to very rich institutions and people to spend more money.
26:10
Money than they had almost, you know, on politics and elections. And I think that's the biggest disasters that I see in my lifetime by the way. And reason is related to what you're saying here is because now we essentially by politicians we don't have the elections that we once had I think Colorado may be one of the best states in the country for keeping things that are straight order. But nonetheless sweet money plays a big role and rushes as we all know.
26:41
Now, where does the money come from? It comes from? The really the wealthy, it comes from the big Industries if you will pass through maybe individuals or whatever and that is. So what was politicians have sold out to the highest bidder, you know, in order to get elected. That's what they represent in the government level. I've seen a lot of work to you deeply and I was very much involved in National policy. But much seen it firsthand. They in turn.
27:10
Control, for example, just to be specific. They control who's going to be the secretary of agriculture.
27:17
The secretary of agriculture, for example, is looking after big agriculture. These days is factory farming, all that sort of stuff. That's where the big money is. They're the ones that's actually living off of, you know, feeding us food, that we ought not to have but that's where all the power is.
27:35
So in a sense and to be really cynical, we by yourself politicians, essentially they control who gets appointed to the key government positions. You can like any case of Agriculture. They're looking out for the interest of they're not looking out for the people. We in turn is taxpayers are subsidizing the production of the wrong, kind of food and doing that for some time. So we actually help the industries as Citizens to sell the wrong kind of food. We get
28:05
Edge. That makes more customers for the health system. So in turn your the drug addictions like that, too, so it's kind of a circular very Insidious and damaging kind of activity. So you're, I think you're really asking how do you had a break that cycle? Hey, break that cycle and I guess I specific ideas. Number one. We need to insist that medical schools, teach nutrition of the kind that I'm
28:35
Talking about because after all doctors is a Frontline troops will see. So that's number one. And that's easily done. By the way. It's series usually dot because you know, the government does support universities and medical schools across the country cause significant extent. All they need to do is look at your core, get more Federal funding, unless you have this in place. That's number one. I think it could help a lot because a lot of doctors would like to know what other present
29:05
Asset positions aren't paid for their services very well. This the system is such that they have to rely on Medical Specialties to classify what they do with each patient and to get excellent. Number of dollars have the hundred and thirty Medical Specialties where they can, you know, take off what it is. They're charging. I'll 230 medical specialty. Is not one is called nutrition.
29:30
I mean, can you believe this? Oh doctors, don't get reimbursed for using and talk about these kind of services. Even if they knew some of them do our along the way. So that's the second thing. The third thing, the NIH was the biggest research medical research agency in the world that they're the ones who funded, most of my research over the years. There's 27 institute's one for cancer, heart disease and so forth and so on there's not one called nutrition. So that's that's one thing just, you know, control their
29:59
Don't go back to the Supreme Court, revisit that turn it over because that's right. There is worth a lot of us starts. And so I, there's other things to the government and I've known this firsthand because I almost as a part of it because on the committee's were these kind of things happen. They the government gets away with telling the public. Basically ate the wrong food. It's good business.
30:29
Now here, now, one more thing. I'll say you're talking about, is there a time when we might see some changes. Its now, I'm sorry for that wrong answer, but you
30:38
probably know that's it. Yeah, I have to I have to think carefully because I could listen to you all day and and there are so many elements that answer that I want to talk about. So let us maybe go and chronological order and go back to
31:00
Your new book and to the, the moneyed interest and the ways that they influence our behaviors. I'm curious because I don't think there are many smart people who would argue against what you're suggesting about. The influence money has in politics, right? I think most people would accept the fact that the more money you have.
31:29
The more publicity, right? The more campaign events more advertisements, more get-out-the-vote efforts that you can pay for it, right? So there is an obvious correlation between, you know, the financial wherewithal and your prospects of getting elected, right? And obviously the larger the financial interest that are backing you. The more sway they might have and
31:59
Influencing you to a point this agricultural secretary, right? I don't think many people would disagree with that. It's pretty obvious, right? You know, I'm curious. So do you think they're for? Well, how do I say this without being too rude, but I really want to get to the heart of the matter. Do you think these people are are acting and what they truly believed to be the best interest of the country? For instance, you
32:29
I think that these are people who grew up on a dairy farm, like you, but they just haven't ever been exposed to the research and therefore, they truly believe we should be eating that much cattle, right? Or do you think that it is a almost sort of mal-intent, right where these people know the truth that they're going to make people sick with these dietary recommendations and their will.
32:59
Okay, with that because it's driving money into the pharmaceutical industry and into the hospital systems. And and, you know, the cycle of sickness and malnutrition malnutrition the sense of starvation and malnutrition the sense of eating the wrong things. Do you believe that there is like, I say mal-intent malevolence in this or you think they're go ahead.
33:26
Yeah, that's that's that's a fantastic.
33:29
Should and let me try to see if I can work this in. You know, I talk in a way in which some people interpret that to mean. I'm a conspiracy nut. You know that people are sitting around and just intentionally making wrong decisions just so long as they can make money and are just being bad people. No, I mean there's some of that goes on. Okay, let's let's give or take that whatever to whatever extent that accursed. There's another word.
33:59
That better describes this and we're all part of it. It's called paradigm.
34:05
A paradigm, you know, is a sphere of thinking, kind of think of like this what we've been living with for the beige game so forth. And so on, I'm here certain ideas of pre sacred to most of the people in the country one way or another, we don't tend to go beyond those boundaries very much. So the question is, where do paradigms come from? What, where why do we collectively? Let things happen that we prefer not to?
34:34
Even though we can test some of his going on, that's a story of history. And that's by the way, the sort of the theme of by new book.
34:43
You know, how do we come to believe, for example, that protein must be consumed for the we need protein from animals as that's kind of good question been around for a long time, as a very interesting, how their story unfolded and how it got into the system, we evaluate and so forth and so on. Why do we all believe that? We got a really, we got to have these drug, we got invest these drugs because they want to make us well, for sure enough, you know some drugs.
35:13
They're dirty quite helpful. I'm not a, I'm not a guest of concept of using drugs. But when we come to relax, we rely on as a lifestyle, that's a different issue. That's it. At are entirely different issue. So when I'm going to answer your question, I think what a lot of people living within a paradigm, they don't know what. They don't know that grows mates. Do I mean I was raised on a farm. I know, you know, my family and although I was first of all,
35:42
To college, you know, all that's or if I know what we all sort of knew, I didn't think of, you know, I wasn't thinking very seriously about nutritious. Just say the least I was milking cows, but, you know, we always were told and understood. Hey, milkis. Milk is food from heaven.
36:01
Trying to say who's going to who's going to quibble? Doubt that somebody comes along says no, it's bad. Well, you know, then people start looking at it as a corner there. I know who you are. What kind of cherish for you?
36:14
So I think, you know, in terms of are working towards developing a better drug.
36:20
For example, that's the livelihood of lot of Professionals in a lot of other workers. That's their job.
36:29
What do they got you? Let's say no. Otherwise, why are they going to sit there and really try to take down, you know, so their industry, if you will, everybody knows that, you know, we need a lot of protein. Why does it why would they want to say to control the production of channel? Do you understand? What I'm feeling is it, it's called that a paradigm. It's very, very powerful. And
36:56
So it's it's been a long while since and that's fascinating to think about it as a paradigm. You know, it's been a very long time since it was a coon right size 17th century almost. Oh, yeah. His his scientific paradigms and goes to show you learned at least one thing in college. It's been a long time since I read that some curious.
37:25
How do we? I know you recommended a couple of things like, you know, and I Center for nutrition studies, right, you know, those things aside, you know, and certainly they would help right if we were making available billions of dollars for nutrition science, that word would eventually get out more right? The, the public media would start to discuss these
37:55
Studies. And hopefully, that would start to make the ships but in the, you know, in the context of looking at it as a paradigm, how do you change that broader perception, right, you mentioned someone looks at you, you know, from with the side of their I you know, an NIH Center is not going to change the fact that we have, you know, religious and other sort of mythical levels of you know,
38:25
Of connection and belief around, you know, things like milk and honey, right? How do you change people's minds and heart, you know, when they're trapped in this sign. And in this current paradigm.
38:42
Where you at? You're asking good questions, very challenging questions that. I mean it is a question of we educating ourselves as a society prepared. The clearly. I'm well, I'm reminded just to sort of follow on what we're saying. I'm reminded of Lyndon Johnson, when he decided not to run for office again, and the right soon as he had left the White House. He had a meeting with a group of
39:11
Our pharmaceutical company Executives, right? And I first saw this report. It was written in by the editor, Scientific American in a vicious magazine at that time. 1969. It was Joshua comes in. And he's talking, these leading pharmaceutical company Executives and he says to him, he says, well boys, how do you like to wear spent your money?
39:38
And then it's a too much and he said you heard made you and he had a flip chart there. He went on to show them. He says, you know, we every year we fight over how much money is going to go into this kind of research and you know, as always give and take in and said we don't we have to do all the time. We can have a steady budget we don't need to worry about how much is there. We have a steady buddy at certain percent of the total budget every year. We can study, whatever you understudy. And here's what he said, John, this is according to the editor of sight.
40:08
American who actually was there, recorded this wrote. The story Johnson says he Johnson said, if you all of you the 50 top companies, if you paid all of your taxes, your trust in a matter of three years, we have all the money they earn their trust.
40:27
You know, instead of paint action for the trust, there's the money. There it is. We know how much they're going to be every year and then you can study the best kind of things, but he said to him, he said, you know, you will not allow that to happen.
40:39
Because you say you own, did I age? And you know, and I know it.
40:44
And so, it was very blunt, is to say the least, and I have been very much involved in NIH. They put in my work. I've been on their committees. I've talked to the directors. I know very well. That's an absolutely true. So, here's an institution, this basic essentially controlled to live according to a certain understanding. Let's call Carol.
41:08
Drugs are good. Let's work on it. Let's get some more. Lets me spend lots of money and look at look at right now with the governor's spending to try to Foster the development of new vaccine. The billions of dollars has been spent there yet and we don't know the answer to what's going to happen to help us if we're the best, but we don't know. And so when you have all that stuff going on and then you asking the question, your help. What can we do? How can we get it turned around?
41:39
This kind of thing what you're doing? Right now. I can say that's in my view. That's one of the significant things.
41:46
It takes time. It really has to do with educating the public of thing, because a lot of people just don't know this, they should respect it. Like you said before. They don't find it too. Surprising, but they don't know why I think the depth of the problem. And so if they could just learn that this kind of
42:11
This kind of eating has such a dramatic effect on their health and along the way, they learn some other things to learn. You think if they do well, and of course, spend a lot of money on medical care.
42:25
Which is killing, you know, it's economically dragons country. Not so most or those, they work, and know that all that livestock were raising because of that. Good protein. If they know that's not necessary.
42:39
That's related to environmental problems. It's an emergency.
42:43
So there you have it. We got some big problems. All, just all coming down to just patiently. What do we know about nutrition? What do we know about the food? We're eating? And what it's actually has on health. I don't know how we can get there faster. But we got now we got this kind of thing, you know, podcasts and, you know, Electronic media and all that sort of stuff to convey information, you know, in 30 seconds around the world. So we just have technology available that I think we can.
43:14
Probably have a greater impact in Westmont a suspended in this was Vindication cashiers. Who knows.
43:24
But I think you're spot on that. It will be education, right? Because ultimately ultimately, you know, as you're mentioning we have a hundred million people in this country alone that are pre-diabetic or by it a diabetic already, you know, and in the next 10 years that's going.
43:44
Bankrupt the country. Not to even mention the pain and suffering, an early death, and all the comorbidities that stem from such a devastating metabolic disorder. But also just, you know, thinking about the financial ramifications, if you know, fifty percent of our GDP is going just to keep sick people alive, you know, it is going to force some, some very deep conversations and we just have to hope that the
44:14
Education comes first, right? Because ultimately, you know, it will come down to individuals choices and and whether or not there is a sort of Groundswell of support for these these natural interventions as opposed to the DraStic technologies that we have to otherwise develop just to keep people alive, you know, and obviously I you know, where I stand, right? We have an app that helps people go plant base for this.
44:44
Reason how we're trying to get the word out as fast as we can. So, so now you've, you've The Arc of your research, you know, I can clearly see sort of tracks with, with my own questions. Like I said, after The China Study, my first question was, if this was true, why isn't anyone else talking about it? Right? And you answered that with your book whole, right? Obviously now,
45:14
Now we're dealing with some of the concepts that we just talked about. What's next for you? It doesn't look like you have any interest in retiring. So I've got to ask. What is the next Frontier? What is the big question that you're thinking about
45:29
today?
45:31
Well, the Corona virus covid thing is forced us to Think Through the differently, what we do, what we don't do, we're probably going to do a lot more, this kind of thing, your podcast and stuff like that. I've got a number of our family have gotten really into this. It's kind of exciting got a son who's position. He's doing at St. Stuff like that. I'm sort of involved a little bit with any runs his own show, of course, but my older son. He's the one that produced the movie called plant pure Nation.
46:01
Sure.
46:02
Now he said creating another one and he got, he's got a company. Be careful. I'm not on here to be advertising a company. I know that but he has a new line of food. It's all dry goods that is very easy to cook and put it in there. And it's very simple, very fast. And he's also, he's doing it. That's really a beach. Anybody else's price a lot of flavors. His wife as a great cook.
46:31
And they got something going right now that I'm I'm I mean regardless whether on tight or not tried to I just want to tell her about it because it's really good is very tasty and fast food, all kinds of varieties of taste. You can be edited. They cooking. It's just almost like instant was that fast so that kind of thing, you know come up with some innovative ideas that that's all whole food by the way has been tested. It really has a dramatic effect on people's health. So that's something
47:01
You do research like, you know you do, there's some stuff like that and then we have it online course or we know that that or not. It's called nutritious study start org, that's with Cornell University. That's what you doing quite well. Just before this. We had our holiday party and were we already got 19 employees in that are you know, sort of tissue courses, online about classification.
47:31
Nutrition has a nut that's all nonprofit. I don't get anything out of that. You know, there's an innocent in a cup friends, you know that do other sorts of things yourself and then look what you're doing. So, I don't know what I'm going to be. Do you asking me? What about what do I got to do? I'm going to write some more three or four papers right now that have been invited to write a right to, you know, something op-ed pieces, Maybe
48:01
Stuff like that. Just telling about the special about the covid problems and the nutrition. Because that's an alternative way to think about that, that people who may wish to to, they were such, right?
48:15
You mentioned the new paper coming out in nature. I'm curious what you can tell about that.
48:23
No, I can't talk about that. As long as I'm clear, you know, as to whether it has been published, and I will say, it's not yet, but
48:31
Alex has been submitted to a top journal and a rather rather confident that we could publish that's not the issue. But still that's that's that's my claws. But the evidence that we got, you know, as I say for 30 years ago involving almost 9,000 people clearly shows that people consuming more plant Foods, they get immunity to the virus when it infects them.
49:02
Because they form antibodies. That's what we measure prevalence of antibodies, and they don't get to liver cancer that's caused by that virus.
49:10
In contrast, the people consuming plant animal food and it was only a smoke, the only consumed on average ten percent of what we're doing the West. It wasn't enough that I thought made a difference, but I'll be darned, you know, the people consuming animal food.
49:25
They did not point the antibodies.
49:30
The virus are at Camus remained active.
49:33
And formed liver cancer and it kills people.
49:38
And their special pretty dramatic. It's pretty dramatic. And I will see where it goes. I mean, people can come back and say to me, truthfully. And honestly, she's look, you haven't, you haven't had a test of that. I'm not sure how we can read test that idea. But it very easily to be honest about it. A lot of things aren't necessarily fully test. He has to rely on the information we have and the information we have is highly statistically significant.
50:08
You're in everything Charter, Paul's together. So that's that's a way to get immunity. That's the way to get immunity and I think and the problem is to its goes beyond the covid virus. There is evidence that we're getting viruses more and more frequently as years pass.
50:30
And we might be getting some virus. I'm sure will surely happen will come along and I'll be another one or two. That will just play Havoc at the first. We've got to figure out. How do we handle these kind of viruses when they come along unexpectedly, they turned out to be worse than what you know might have been anticipated right now. We got some pretty good technology growing that we can develop tests really quickly.
50:56
And we can test people. If such a thing like that happens. We could test it really quickly and you know, such circumstances quarantine him if you will, so it's a fast reaction, but at the same time, for eat the right food.
51:11
We'll manage it for manager.
51:15
It always comes back to food,
51:16
right? Because it really goes back to food. I just, I don't know. I was raised on a farm and we we we milked the cows and butchered or animals and and raised her crops. So, I was always it - what farmers do your child pretty close to Nature and they pay attention to that kind of thing. But in those days, everybody had Gardens, too.
51:43
But that's it. That's a very useful thing to do. I must say, yeah.
51:50
- yeah. Yeah, but just one last question and then we can wrap up again. You know, you've been so generously a time. What, for the people who are listening. Do you have a request for them? How can we help overturn? This current Paradigm? You know, how can we get the word out?
52:13
What what's your request if you've got, you know, 10 mm people's at listening.
52:19
Well if I can take a course, but one thing but my we have a group of right now. They're called Wellness groups or pods. I always heard of those are not. We've got about 400 pods here and abroad their Community groups to get together, you know, work together doing things and behalf of this message.
52:42
And there we got about 250,000 people in those pause now. And so we get a network that were just now beginning to develop and they're all over the place. And these are local groups are enthusiastic about that kind of thing. So join a pod form of God, whatever and then you know, and they can get together. If they do nothing more. They share meals. Talk about our show film. It's kind of fun. It's the social thing. So,
53:12
I can come back fun that way. Fortunately, but they can also get, you know, get active. Maybe they can some request on their government are getting petition signed or you know, or maybe do another thing. Don't think for four groups who are in need.
53:31
We got a lot of people who are our need, don't even get enough food. Let alone, good food and a lot of things we can do. I think here at the community level.
53:43
And our organization online group that we have is the address of that has nutrition. Studies twirl nutrition, studies dot-org, and it's a non-profit. As I say, it's important ship with Cornell University. In fact, it's really part of the University now.
54:04
And so what we try to make it really good quality stuff. And we've had I don't, we had about twenty thousand graduates to take the whole course, but it's quite a few. It's really going quite well. So anything you want to do along those lines or Tina think up something new to do. You know, what is it? The world is wide open.
54:27
And there's a lot of people doing very sundry things. It's quite nice.
54:32
Yes. Well, it all starts with you. So again, this is really been full circle for me and an incredible opportunity. So, thank you so much for being here, for sharing your afternoon with us and for sharing your wisdom. I really appreciate dr. Campbell.
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