and I, you know, I Hesitate to kind of stay on hard themes but I think it's really important for a couple of reasons. Last time we spoke it was in your office and your podcast. And after we wrapped up, we started talking about some people, we know and some things that had happened in your community and kind of spooled into some discussions, about things that happened, in nearby communities, and civilian culture, and you know, One of the things that so perplexing. I think two people,

Including

me, but maybe with time less. So, and it at this actually came up last night and discussion at home because of some recent events, not close to me, but she is that, you know, some people go through things where there's loss. They go through life and there's hardship, most people experience, some hardships, certainly some more than others and every once in a while. And far too often and even in the Seal team community. And even in the various communities within the Seal team Community where one would never expect it. All right, these are highly trained tight community. Hard guys, right? That's the language. So we sometimes hear, but as you pointed out that these are people often, they have tremendous emotional depth. I am so glad that you brought that up because I think we, You know, I sometimes think of his motion as weakness. But you know, there was a time, not long ago, 40 50 years ago where emotions like jealousy and intensity, think the character sunny and The Godfather, like, he would get so (expletive). You do, why you don't best, right? That's pretty emotional response. Where intensity and emotion were kind of interchangeable words, right? At some level. I'm going to be direct. There have been a lot of guys come out of the SEAL Teams. I've been surprised to hear the kill themselves and yesterday there was a major suicide. I didn't know this guy in prison. We actually followed each other on social me but admittedly was not close to him. Didn't know. Him didn't know him at all. In fact, his name was twitch or something and he's this guy was a, it was a public-facing figure but listen happens all too often and it even happens in former operators. And suicide. Something that fascinates me and intrigues me and scares the (expletive) out of me. Because for the life of me, I cannot map it to any specific thing in the brain or body that we're aware of. And yeah, my I've had several friends, commit suicide had my undergrad advisor, commit suicide, the point is not them where their story. The point is, What in the world dictates whether or not somebody who has a community? Who's doing well and then less well. Decides to off themselves to end their own life versus, you know, decide, I'm going to keep going. I mean, this is I'm raising. This is a question. I wish I had an answer. I used to have ideas like, oh, it's time perception. You know why these people are so miserable feeling, so miserable that they feel it's going to go on forever. But then you start reading the literature on suicide and I've started to go into this it for those of you that can stomach it. And I don't know that I want to recommend this movie, but I'm just going to say it exists the movie The Bridge where they fix the camera on the Golden Gate bridge for a year. It turns out, one person a day on average tries to jump off. Talked to a guy who survived it by the way, he jumped off, the moment he went off there, he thought I wish I hadn't done that, he survived his kid with bipolar, bipolar disorder, especially males 20 to 30 times higher incidents of suicide. Massive increase the point is that There's something that happens in the brain where somehow, people also will get the idea. And you hear this, that this is like something they're excited to do, or that they're going to write the world somehow by doing this or that, somehow, it's like a gift to themselves again. I'm not encouraging. Anybody do this, I want to be very clear but these are the things that you hear and sadly your community has lost a number of people through suicide. And yet there are a lot of guys that thrive. And so more as a template for trying to understand mental health and depression and suicide, what are your thoughts on? Why some people seem to thrive? And some people just go all the way down. Clearly

there's a, that's a very complex question and there's probably a lot of different answers and I certainly am not one to be able to answer that question. However, Probably where my, where my thought has gone on this lately? Because, you know, I've known some guys that have killed themselves and I've been totally shocked But and just been taught completely and totally shocked that guys, that I knew killed themselves guys, that you would think all this guy would would never do this in a million years and that's the feeling I've had a lot about. A lot of the guys that I know that have killed themselves, I had a woman on my podcast name, Sarah Wilkinson, and she's an awesome woman, and she was married to a seal. His name was Chad. I didn't know him. He killed himself. he and to hear her describe the story, The the shocking thing about the story is that the guy that she knew the guy that she married was not the same guy that killed himself. Something happened to him. That made him a different person. And look, they're getting all this information now about CTE and the, the brain trauma that you go through and people are exposed to that. And I think, you know, if you've ever seen George Foreman, he seems totally normal and good to go, right? And Muhammad Ali, not so much. And I've known Fighters and you can look at any number of boxers that have had a career and some of them Them are fine. And some of them have some real significant. What is it? Pugilistic, there's pugilistic syndrome, right? They've been punched too much and they have problems. So different people. You can expose different people to blast blast impact, and it's going to have a different impact over time. And I think that, you know, again to hear Sarah explain, that story. And what she saw from her husband, and how different he was, when they got married, compared to where they ended up. It's totally different. It totally different person. I had another friend of mine on who named Marcus Capone and his wife came on with him and she said the same thing, like the guy that she married was not the same guy, that was ready to kill himself in and he didn't thankfully, if it was a different person and it's not look, you know, if you know, Fred is married to some woman and Fred and Jessica grow apart over time and He ends up with some other girl. He's still the same guy, right? It's still the same guy that is now like they grew apart. They're getting divorced, we get it. But the way that both of them describe their husbands as being different people, That's what stuck with me more than anything else. So, I, you know, again, I'm throwing this out there only because it's what I've observed through. The people that I know, and, and seeing and hearing those stories of people being totally different, and I've known a few people. One of my friends, Dave killed himself. I never, I never would have guessed in a million years that Dave would kill himself. He just did. It doesn't compute, it doesn't compute. And so my suspicion is, there has to be something going on mechanically or chemically with the brain that causes them to get into a mode where they're depressed and they don't see a way out and that that's the way they feel now. And again, what's interesting about this is, we already talked about the fact that the selection, the selection process weeds, Doubt guys that are going to take a loss and not be able to get get up again. Know you've got seals, seals can take a loss and get back up again. That's what you learn, how to do in bit, or that's what you you don't learn how to do it. You you have it and if you make it through that training, you have that ability to take a loss. Alright cool Shake It Off, get back up, keep going they're going to do that to you. So now you've got guys that are taking a loss and they don't see a way out anymore in fact to such a point that they're going to take their own lives.