Hello boys and girls ladies and germs Damas y Caballeros. Ha ha ha, this is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show. Where is my job to interview world-class performers to deconstruct how they do what they do influences favorite books habits belief structures. You name it? My guest today is Dax Shepard Dax Shepard, sh EPA Rd at Dax Shepard on Twitter and Instagram. Dax is an American actor writer director and podcast host. He is known for his work in the future.
Films Without a Paddle Zathura A Space Adventure Employee of the Month. Idiocracy Let's Go to Prison hit-and-run and chips the last pair of which he also wrote and directed and the MTV practical joke reality series Punk'd he portrayed Crosby Braverman in the NBC comedy drama series Parenthood since 2018. He has hosted the Juggernaut podcast armchair expert. It was 2018 s most downloaded new podcast on Apple podcasts and one breakout podcast at the 2019 iHeart Radio podcast Awards.
His roster of guests includes Kristen Bell includes Ashton Kutcher. All Gates Alicia Keys Chelsea Peretti, Sarah Silverman Conan O'Brien Seth Rogen 50 Cent Jimmy Kimmel, Alanis Morissette and hundreds more. You can find armchair expert on Apple podcast Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find acts as I mentioned on social media Instagram Twitter at Dax Shepard. The website is armchair expert pod.com. Please enjoy a wide-ranging conversation with Dax Shepard.
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Shake can I ask you a personal question now with a seat. I'm a cybernetic organism living tissue over metal endoskeleton.
Dax welcome to the show. Thanks for making time. Yes. Thanks for
having me. It might be fun for people to even know why we're talking.
Well, let's see it
originated with a mention in my newsletter 508 Friday
a very complimentary
very complimentary and very well deserved to an episode of your podcast. I'm sure expert in which you interviewed Atul gawande who I've respect for very long time author of many books including the checklist Manifesto.
And it was one of those episodes that I come across every once in a while where I think to myself I should have interviewed that guy first because I don't think I'm actually going to be adding much to the conversation by having a second interview unless I just jump straight to the rapid fire questions, you know, if you were a breakfast cereal, what would you be kind of stuff right you did you did an exceptional job and
so flattering. Thank you. And so you reached
out.
After that, and that's how we connect it and we yeah, I guess one or two conversations since and
here we are in the show. Yeah, we connected over the phone and I'll admit to my very I think it's human susceptibility to compliments from high-status people. I mean, this is deplorable about me, but, you know, certainly people wrote on that episode on our feed that it was nice and everything and I feels good, but then to see in you could consider quotes a competitor.
Some level so or a colleague. I don't know how you want to frame it. But to know that someone else who does what I do listened in liked it is abundantly flattering. I'll sometimes like, you know, I'll reach out to I think we're both friends with Sam Harris. So if there was an episode, I'd love to have his I'll I'll tell him that and then occasional go. Oh, I really liked your and I'm like, wow, I assume you don't listen you would never listen to my show because you have your own show. So I don't know. It's just it gets elevated quickly for me that you had took the time to listen when you
so much time in the podcast world. You probably want a break from it.
I
have decided that I want to go back to the well and try to work on the craft and part of that is listening to people who are really good and I pulled my audience on Twitter to determine which episodes to hone in on and that was part of my homework and I all yeah, no kidding. Yeah, and I did that early early on because I started this podcast and 2014 seems like in the pliocene era.
And I initially looked at Inside the Actors Studio and some of these others Terry Gross. Also, I think had a similar experience to yourself. And the sense that went on WTF with Marc Maron and Joe Rogan and was on Nerdist and had such a great time compared to the two minutes of having someone look over your shoulder at a teleprompter morning TV Edition that I decided to kind of get a kick the tires and try it out at least for myself, but it's
It seems to me like you have much more so than myself mean skyrocketed to such a dominant place in some respects with the podcast and there's a lot to unpack there. But I thought where we could start is your mom and I'll play some background around that I've had many friends of mine asked me if I would have my mom or dad on my podcast OSHA and they've also
Jested that I record episodes with them. Even if I never release them and I think there's something to be said for that. I haven't yet done it. You did have your mom on the podcast and I would just love to hear you describe why you did that and if it was at all difficult to pull the trigger to do it and publish it.
Well, if for me it felt like I should absolutely do it because the
Kind of premise of our show is look man. It is hard to get through 80 years on this planet and not fuck up royally often and so my mother just as her. I don't know where she got it from to be honest with you, but she's always had the most compassionate empathetic point of view like an example would be I lived in a small town, you know, occasionally a young kid would die in a car accident and always drunk
driving-related and and there would be other people in the car and the whole community be mad at the driver and my mother's first thought would always be like, oh man, what are the parents of the boy driving thinking about you know, every baby comes home and cigars are handed out and everyone's excited. And this is just not where it should end for anyone. She always had this knack for kind of taking almost the antagonists and stories and having a great deal of empathy for them. And so however much I'm able to do that on our
It's directly credited to her for sure and this really kind of willingness to own your fuck-ups in public. Like she would tell people relative strangers how many times she's been divorced or this or that she just didn't seem to she seemed to fight shame with that. And so I just always admired her about that and I definitely think that's if that's you know, why the podcast work it's attributable to her. So it seemed natural to have her on but then I had the fear of
You know, my mother's not a public personality. She's not been in interviews. It's a stressful situation as you just said, you know, I think people underestimate how much of a like a starter pistol goes off when you're on one of those talk shows. It's like you're standing behind a door. It's about to raise up your supposed to walk up to the right and to the left and you shake the guy's hand. Then you sit down and you let you know, it's so quick and like being shot out of a cannon that it's very hard to relax and be yourself out there. So I had an appropriate amount of fear that she would maybe just not be the
And I know once there was a microphone in front of her and then to my great Delight she had no problem with it. She was just very comfortable right away. And then I think the unforeseen thing for me was
the person who does interviews was operating on some level and so there are obvious things that I would have asked for follow-up questions with any other guests that I had never asked my mom and I guess the one that was probably most profound is
My mom has his incredible story, you know three divorces started as a janitor night shift built a company raise three kids on her own. She's had two suicide attempts. She's wrestled with mental health issues. She had a my first stepdad was physically abusive and beat her up in front of us and it was it was gnarly and so in she was very comfortable with that. And so she's kind of going through her story and then it just hit me for the first time. It's something I would ask to real guess.
Which was God, how could someone is tough as you and is confident as you have lived with someone that was beating you up? It's hard for me to it's you're not you don't fit. The the The Stereotype I have of someone with low self-esteem that would find themselves in that relationship. And she said again I've never asked her that but she said, you know the shame of having failed twice. I just got divorced from your dad and I didn't want to tell my parents and what that did.
So easy and everyone was disappointed and I felt like a failure and now I picked this other guy and I probably did it haphazardly and here I was again and I I was I would have preferred to have gotten physically beat up than to own the shame of having failed twice in such a short period of time and I think that ended up being one of the most profound things that happen in that. I know a lot of women reached out to us and really related to that and have contacted my mom separately about that. And so yeah, that was a neat
Part of it that I never thought to really ask her in real life. But then once in this context, it seems very obvious. I should ask that. And so I dug I could definitely see it going off the rails and and I'll also had one thing about my mom which is I one time told a story on a talk show that was kind of embarrassed her and she called me and she was a little embarrassed and I felt really bad and I said, I'm sorry, I guess I sometimes just assume you're as open as I am or whatever.
Is and then she called me back about a week and a half later. And she said, you know what I was wrong to call you. This is your story and you are you have a full right to tell your story and it involves me sometimes and that can be sometimes I'm embarrassed by that but you certainly if you have any rights to tell your own story, so I already had that relationship. So I think that puts me in a much better spot than maybe I don't know what your relationship is with your parents. Are they still
married?
They're still married. My parents are still together. And I mean there's their million directions we could go with that uh-huh before and maybe maybe we do maybe another time. But before we before we turn it into the Tim Tim therapy session, which we can
well, we will when you're on my show for sure. Yeah. Well do that.
I'm very curious if
A that's a level of like Equanimity that you've seen in your mom before because that's a very I want to say mature not in the age-related sense, but in the psychological sense perspective to take with your story and the divulging and telling of things that might be embarrassing to her might and cause uncomfortable conversations with her friends. Have you seen that before and then the second part is did you see any downside?
Side or did she experience any downside to being on the show as someone who's not a public figure and as we both know a lot of weirdos can come out of the
woodwork? Oh, yeah, although it is filtered at a certain point as I'm sure you experience like in general if someone's listening to your show. They probably liked you, you know, but I doubt people hate listen to you the way they did Howard Stern and the
nine my shirt my stuff's too long.
I guess do what it do.
No, she she has had nothing but incredibly positive moving reactions to that and I do think she thought maybe what I have thought in the past which is oh she says this is going to be embarrassing to her brother's or her other family members, right and that was not the case in I guess that's what I've kind of learned almost 250 times in a row doing the show, which is like every time you think it's going to be embarrassing.
Icing and there's going to be backlash that's almost assuredly going to mean something real and vulnerable came out and I've Just Seen I've yet to see vulnerability met with shittiness thus far. I mean it'll certainly happen in a and certainly some some things I've admitted have been mildly weaponized by by different political points of view, but in general I've just been so encouraged and you know a little bit the premise of why I want to do the show is that I'm in a
Step program. I'm in a a i watch people. I've watched people for the last 17 years share things that should make you hate them, but they're when they do it and they're owning it as a fall or a mistake or a character defect. It's just hard not to be empathetic towards that because man I've yet to meet the person who's not wrestling with some shittiness. You know, I think it's pretty it's a unifying trade of us humans, you know, we've got some shit we're all dealing with
so it seems like
You
have owned and use extremely well vulnerability as a superpower of sorts on your show and quite possibly elsewhere in your life. Let's talk about one component of that which is addiction. When did you first think of yourself as having a problem with any type of of substance abuse or substance use
throughout my using but I had a different point of view, which is my heroes at that time were Bukowski. They were other romantic drunks. They were Waylon Jennings and and I had this this fantasy this romantic fantasy that I could do something artistically that would be impactful enough that it would excuse all of my shittiness. Right? So like Waylon's got several songs basically apologizing for cheating on his wife and
It's hard to be in love with a fun loving man and Bukowski would put these books out and it kind of excuse what a horrendous piece of shit. He was in his real life. So I think I very much was I was looking to be a fuckup, but but maybe one that was funny enough that people overlooked it or I wrote something important enough that people would give me a pass. And so that was kind of my my fantasy and on some level it worked a bit. I think people were willing to be around me more than some other people.
That are less funny but I had underestimated that I ultimately suffered. I ultimately was demoralized in pessimistic in defeated and that it really wasn't about all the people around me. I could keep in my Orbit that I ultimately had to be with myself all the time. And and so I had an awareness that I drank too much that was quite obvious.
I knew that I used cocaine far more frequently than the Surgeon General would recommend
and
I didn't care until you know, I had a few attempts at getting sober and I could put together two or three months. I generally did it because I knew I couldn't use the way I used an work in movies and I cared more about that. So I would generally get sober from movies and then in between movies, I would I would go out but I had my most profound moment was
I was about to start this movie Zathura. I knew I had to get sober for I thought I'm going to go to Hawaii for a week vacation with a buddy before I start because I know I'm going to be getting sober and I specifically went to Hawaii because I was under the impression they didn't have cocaine. There is very hard to get cocaine there and I didn't want to die but they have other stuff there and I found crystal meth and all this stuff. And by the time I I left that trip, I had a layover in San Francisco and I was so physically sick from that week. I had been in a car accident.
I had smoked meth for a few days. I was just I was in so much physical anguish that when I got to San Francisco. I really needed to get down like three or four Jack and diets to make the flight to LA and I had been in a a at that point. So I'm so afraid someone from AA is going to run into me at this airport. And so I'm hiding in the corner of this bar and there's the proverbial mirror it actually was there and I'm
I'm I'm I'm hiding and I am people recognized me. So that dream had come true. I was about to make the most amount of money. I ever made in my life starting that movie and amount of money that I thought it would solve all things and I was the most scared most depressed most suicidal. I had ever been with all the things I had wanted to get and that was a very very scary moment and I realized wow, it really isn't about the
Those things I had told myself as I think a lot of people do like if I got some money I'd be happy if I got this girl, I'd be happy if I got this job. I'd be happy and I was lucky enough to get the all those things and I was very unhappy and so I really had to ask why and I had to actually figure out how to be happy because it wasn't those things they help for sure. I don't want them to be taken away. But but I was at my shittiest point with all the things I had set out to
get where
did you land asking those questions in terms of what makes you happy? What were the the levers that mattered? What were the ingredients that
mattered? Well, I've slowly cobbled together a little checklist for me. I think a a shame. I just had a decade of shames, you know, all kinds of deplorable behaviors while fucked up so that was a big component and then really self-esteem right? I was trying to get my
Value from a lot of outside validation and then I got it and I just did I saw the same person in the mirror. I'd also dated girls that I was convinced if that girl liked me. Well clearly that would prove I was desirable and worthy of wanting and then every time I look in the mirror at their house, I've same piece of shit and so over years of being sober my list really became have I exercised
I can't put too fine a point on my belief in exercise. I like I'm a zealot about it. I'm annoying if I had to pick one thing in my life. It would be that I exercise. I've just never felt worse after an hour of exercise and I felt before so exercise is huge. You know, have I gone to a meeting that's huge. Have I been of service to somebody? I don't want to be and in general when I feel terrible if I ask myself those three things if those three things
Today they've never happened. I've never done those three things and and been in major discontent. I you know that for me is kind of my checklist. You mentioned
shame. It's a shame and it's something I've danced with that points directly after some certainly after some childhood experiences. And I know you've had your own aha rounds with various types of Shame and so on I wasn't planning on going here this early.
We in the conversation but you recently admitted to a relapse and it had a very public conversation about it. If we flash back to your bombs experience not wanting to fail all not wanting to admit that this time. It hadn't worked. Yeah. I view what you did is tremendously that is coming out and addressing it and
Putting in place something proactively as a plan to try to mitigate it happening again walk me through your experience of deciding to tell deciding to share because as you know, psychologically I can't speak to what that was like internally, but I'd like to hear
it. Yeah. I was very very hesitant to share. It is certainly publicly.
One I had let this 16 years of sobriety become so intertwined with my identity. I mean, I would tell someone within the first half hour of meeting them that I have been sober for 16 years. So it was like so much of my identity was that number and you know, we fight to protect our identity pretty hard and I I did as well and then additionally I had this
All component, which is I so cherished the people who listen to the show who would hear my story of sobriety and recovery, and then maybe try going to a meeting or they or they got sober. I mean, I've gotten you know hundreds and hundreds of messages from people over the last few years of doing the podcast saying hey man, I'm two months sober because you thanks for this thing. And I have of it was just genuinely I think that's a nasty mobile a
so that gave me a ton of self-esteem and and then my egos certainly some percentage of that which is maybe the unhealthy part of it, which is I liked being a beacon of someone that this program worked for and I didn't want to lose that I didn't want to not be someone people would look up to and want sobriety from and as I started telling people closest to me that I had relapsed a good friend of mine.
It's sad, you know, if you're true in that your real desire is to help people. It's so much more helpful that you relapsed like it is you having 16 years and being married to Kristen Bell is not very helpful to anyone. That's those aren't overnight goals that someone would feel like they could relate to you on he said, so if you're if you're if you're honest and true about this desire to help people, this is very helpful. And so I
Really took that advice to heart and I also as you know you the the level of there's something much different from me about listeners and what I call armchair. He's then people maybe who saw me in Idiocracy, right the in Idiocracy, you've got Mike Judge is the genius behind that and it's his vision that we're all executing and if you like the show you probably like me like I'm very connected to anyone that likes the show. I think they like me.
A character I played so and I couldn't have a show begging people to be honest about this shitty things that they've done in and then not do that in return, but it was really really hard and then I had other fears again. This is all in The Mists of being actively addicted to opiates. So a lot of the things I would tell you I know now are not the truth at all. But in those moments, I'm like, you know, I come out and say I relapse I may lose sponsors.
I don't know. I may not get asked to sell Samsung microwaves. You know, I make a living there's a financial component that could backfire and I'll add into it. It's so not fair for my wife that now every fucking interview. She does for the next six months. They're going to ask her about my relapse like that. I feels very unfair to me that I would put her in this situation where now she's got to explain what the hell happened.
So those are just all the factors, you know that were I was afraid to come clean about and then it was an interesting experience doing it because when we Monica and I recorded it, I had a lot of control over that I could we could edit something out. If we didn't like it we could not release it. We still had control and then there was a period where we're like, well, what do we call it? So I control over what it was called way to control over what day it came out and then I
I did that once it was out. It was just out and then I had no control over it and one of the reasons I relapse is I fucking love control. I love to know what mood I will be in. I love to regulate my emotions in my feelings and I that's one thing drugs do is you know how you will feel in 30 minutes and I desire that and so but I will say all my fears that they've yet to come to pass now. I didn't lose any.
Is I had this we have this great relationship with light life, which is a alternative. You know, it's a vegetarian meat, right? I got up a huge basket of flowers from them said like we want more than anything to still be in business with you. So it would couldn't have been nicer it was you know humiliating in some ways and then ultimately the bottom line is
I felt horrendous lying to the people in my life. I had not gas-lit people in 16 years and I was gaslighting people. I was gaslighting people in my life. I was gaslighting a doctor. I was 5 I was doing it and I just I don't have the stomach for it anymore. I couldn't do it as like I would look at Monica's like you're on something and then I deny it deny it deny it and make her feel crazy. And then I'm feel horrendous about that. They used to not be
Either me or I used to be able to do it, but I just I wasn't able to do it and so whatever downside that there was which was so minimal the relief of not looking at people. I love and fucking lying to their faces is been, you know, infinitely better.
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You see your wife has said publicly the year also addicted to self-improvement or our growth and that seems to be in your favor. What are some of the for those people listening who perhaps a battle with addiction a relapsing what are some of the things you're putting in place to decrease the likelihood of it happening again. What have you changed?
It's a really interesting experience for me because I'm bored a 35 or something right now. Right? So the first couple weeks was just kind of really owning that it wasn't just this last period where I had had two back-to-back surgeries. I mean that certainly lit a fire under it. But if I really go back and started as I said in that episode with having been in a motorcycle accident
Legit prescription leaving it in Detroit because I had no one to administer it going home to take care of my dad who's dying of cancer. He has Percocet I take Progressive with my dad. So that's that shady. That's I'm not really supposed to do that. But I'm justifying that as well. I have a prescription at home and fuck it. Also my dad's dying and we're sitting here looking at the lake and I can kind of justify that and then I admit it to Kristen and Kristen doesn't think I'm a terrible piece of shit over that and I kind of just work through that right and then that becomes
a little bit of a misleading experience, which is like, oh, yeah, I did that once and it was no big deal. I didn't go out and buy more. I didn't do anything crazy. I didn't act like an addict opiates were never my thing and then I get you know, I've a lot of stupid hobbies and I get hurt maybe two years later. I get hurt again and I have a prescription and now this time I don't take them at night when they're administered to me because they fuck up my sleep. So I just save them and then in the morning when I get the other administered ones, I now take
Too because I that feels better than the one so now we're getting more shady. But again, I'm not shady enough where I'm ready to go. Like, oh, I don't have 12 years of sobriety over this and it's I willfully
Allow myself to be misled by all that I go. This isn't something that I really don't have control over. I know what powerlessness feels like. I know what unmanageability feels like if I drink there's no guessing where I'll be in three days. And if we had Coke to that there's just no guessing where I'll be for a week or so, you know that to me is powerlessness and unmanageability. But this thing is very misleading because I'm can do my job. I can wake up on time. I can be there with my kids. I can do everything I want.
Do and for the most part no one has any idea and I'm doing all the things I think I'm supposed I need to do I'm exercising. I'm still doing the fucking checklist, which is ridiculous being of service. I'm exercising and I'm going to meetings. But again now the lies are just they're just piling up they you know, a light on the morning has to I need three more by like three to make the first one make sense and I'm like, oh my God, I forgot how this Spirals and then that that
That was became very clear that that it was unmanageable. I couldn't like I didn't know who I was telling what to at some point. And then the powerlessness was just you know opiates is a gnarly thing to get addicted to because daily your tolerance goes up. So even if you're not even in search of getting higher, you're just going to have to take more and more and more and and that's that's the situation I found myself in pretty quickly into the whole thing, which is like I'm taking a tremendous amount now and I'm going to have a horrendous detox, and I know
And that was not part of the plan. Did I answer your question?
You didn't put the Baxter is helpful. What are you doing now or World some some sorry. I
told you the first yes. Yeah.
So the first part was Breakers he put in place.
Yes. So the first part was just understanding how this thing happened. I needed to get my arms around. Like how did it happen? Well, it happened with all these baby steps. So that was important for me to acknowledge like there's no wiggle for me the
You know, there's no white lie for me because the white Lyle just it'll grow that's what it does it grows. And then secondly, I had to ask myself. What am I trying to escape? You know, what do I find? So uncomfortable in my life that I need to confront and that took a couple weeks for me to kind of isolate and that's being tackled now that's being taxed.
Golden therapy and that's being addressed and I know and I'm not really ready to let everyone in the world know what that is for me, but funny enough the most generic thing in the book and the a big book is resentments will make us drink that we can't have them there. We're for whatever reason were the type of people that just we can't afford to have them and and I had a couple and they were huge and I
I was ignoring them and I was not wanting to confront them and and I'm now you know in the process of working through all those so I think age is coming clean being honest with everybody and then committing to figuring out why I wanted to escape and and addressing that which I feel like is happening. And then again the the huge Silver Lining of this whole story is that I didn't go drink and do Coke, which I didn't think was possible.
I thought if I had to say I'd one day I'd be like fuck it. Well, then I want a drink I miss that so I just feel crazy lucky that that compulsion didn't come over me.
Also as you're talking about remaining honest to your listeners, it strikes me that if the only thing that came out of your podcast were the strength of that public accountability with this type of situation that that would be a huge Roi on starting the podcast right? I mean, that's
that's it's an incredible point of Leverage. You mentioned Monica's name a few times for those people who don't know who Monica is who is
Monica she is my co-host on armchair expert and her stories fantastic, which is she was in our friendship Circle kind of peripherally and she let us know she could babysit. So I think about 7 years ago, maybe she babysat for our firstborn kid a little bit and then we had a second kid we
Brought her on more full-time to help and then we discovered pretty quickly that she was also a UCB person and was incredibly funny and a really good writer. So then Kristen started asking her to write things for her and then she kind of just took over Kristin's life. She would if Kristen hosts an award show Monica writes it if Kristen does a commercial she punches it up like she just became funny enough in some of the ways some of the stuff I used to do for Kristen now Monica did and which so I was just very thrilled about that.
Like oh good. We have two writers in the house now. So and then so she transitioned from watching the kids to really running Kristen's whole thing. And then she was always around in our hobby would be to argue about political things or podcast. We had just heard or a TV show we loved debating. And so when we when I want to do a podcast I thought oh this would be so great to have her both just to be a completely different point of view than my own and I think is
Also important that it sits it would be a non-white and Anon male point of view would be helpful and she has provided that and become you know, the most beloved part of the show and she also fact checks all my interviews because I spout facts I learned in college in 1999 that are either not true anymore or I've misremembered them. So she has this fact-check component and it's kind of morphed and then she had her own show on our Network. That was as big as our show.
So she's just she's amazing. See
poached your wife's Chief of Staff ID for your head. We
we had to have like a it was a really funny conversation because she's like, you know, I think you're stealing Monica, right? And I was like, yeah I go but I you know, we just we gotta go with what's financially better for everyone and so had I not had the financial argument my corner. I don't I wouldn't want it
lists double-click on Monica's roll.
Little bit. There's a piece large piece from the LA Times and there's there's a short mention or an excerpt that I'm going to pull out which is eventually pad man came up with a business plan and together. They hashed Out rough parameters. So that refers to the planning stage of the podcast. Could you describe at that point in the very nascent stages? Because you're very thoughtful and you're very smart guy also, very agile on your feet very funny, of course, but also very methodical
and very analytical if you want to be and Monica clearly very smart. What did the business plan and parameters look like in the beginning when you guys are on the back of a napkin? Yeah, that might
be overstated. I think that implies a lot more planning than we actually did but I mean in a nutshell two things. I'm a terrible delegator. I have a ton of
Fear that someone won't execute something in the same tone that I like right again back to me being a control freak. It's why I went into directing at some point and so to find someone like her who I had watched take over Kristen's point of view in town and execute it flawlessly for years. I just felt very safe like this the first person I think I've ever really just trusted to execute this shared.
Dias oh, yeah, I don't I didn't know anything other than I had been a guest on podcast, right? That's all I knew about podcasts and so in Rob to our other producer, he's very instrumental in this he was producing another podcast and I met him on there. And so Monica was like meeting with people who have successful podcast and finding out everything that goes into it. So she really did gather up all that. I just wanted to chat and she really figured out how to do it with with Rob who is also very instrumental in it and
The thing of all is right it becomes something that you weren't necessarily you couldn't have foreseen and you thought you wanted to do one show but it kind of becomes another show and and she was just she's incredibly helpful and and being it's just great to have two people who are objective checking each other because I'm wrong a lot. She's wrong a lot, you know, but together there's like a there's a pilot copilot anything. I'll call her the pilot for this and I'm the co-pilot. But yeah, she's just
Just I'll tell you we didn't edit when we first started the show and the result of that was I felt a compulsion to fill every dead second of air time. I already talked way too much of steamrolled in this interview. And so I did it even times 10 because I I was like, well this person's thinking for 22 seconds. I gotta say something and Monica was like we need to start editing the show and then she started editing the show and she really then becomes the editors. So in charge of the
On the show. It's just it's her point of view as much as anyone's because she does do that and I've never listen to an episode and thought what the fuck was she thinking. I'm always like oh God. Thank God. She she also knows when I go too far, which I go too far quite often.
And she saves me just to give people a peek
behind the curtain. How do you Monica and Rob split responsibilities? Just so people have a window into the podcast operation so to speak because this is certainly me following my own curiosity. I mean, you've you've built something amazing you and your team how do they split responsibilities? Okay, so I'll
kind of tell you pre covid because it's evolved obviously for covid it's changed dramatically, but when we did every interview in person Rob was in charge of
The audio thing we needed every you know, the hosting site publishing it he takes the photographs. He's really great at graphic designs. So he does our look the yellow thing and he also does all the merchandising like we he designs all the stuff. I mean Monica and I are involved in it, but he physically makes everything I assume on Photoshop or some I don't even know what he uses. He
He is also the liaison between all the technical people that are involved in it. And then Monica is very much a producer in that. She's dealing with publicists. She's booking the show quite often. She is on the calls with sponsors and advertisers trying to explain what we do and what we don't do and what how everyone can be happy. So she's like by the time it gets to me and it's time for me to read ads all the things have been handled by Monica, right?
Whether that's just like oh we don't actually say that but he's happy to do this, you know, so she's in charge of both, you know, editing dealing with all the advertisers booking and dealing with getting people. Rob also will get people to like it's a lot easier for us to get experts than it is celebrities. And our show is Monday celebrity Thursday expert so experts generally have a book to sell and that's that makes it a lot easier so
So but Monica's now very dialed in with all these different publicists and as we've had better guess than more people are interested in all this and she handles all that I research I show up and I interview people and I also reach out to people that maybe I have access to that. No one else has access to and on rare occasion. Kristen has to get involved because people like her a lot more than me.
So the podcast landscape is kind of a elephant graveyard of three.
Podcasts or 10 episode podcasts, right even very well-known people with ostensibly pre-existing audiences. Just tap out frequently. Yeah, and there there are God knows how many what 30,000 50,000 hundred thousand new podcasts a week launching. I have no idea. The numbers is enormous. Yeah, and you kind of pull vaulted very quickly to a dominant position and you have stayed there and this is probably a question you're tired of people asking you but
to what would you attribute that if you had to speculate or your best friends are people who know the show really? Well if it's easier to answer that way, what did they attribute it to? Well,
we launched really big right which was an advantage that we have over so many people and we and we launched very big are at least I explained it by the fact that Chris and I did it together and the episode didn't go that well, which I think people found very
I know probably like mirror nurani satisfying anyone who's in a relationship, you know, so I had an explanation for why the first episode did really well and then also some of my my more popular friends like Kimmel I think was on the first batch and so is Ashton they were nice enough to help. So when they were a part of the launch, I really kind of attributed it to them and or the the shared interest in Christian and I as a couple because
Cuz we've found this out. It would be hard to miss if say she posted a picture of herself. Let's say it gets, you know, I don't know what a hundred thousand likes. She posed a picture of her and I together it'll get like three hundred thousand likes and same for me. There's like a factor of three things, you know more than the sum of our parts. So I had explained it by that and I thought for sure it would all fall off soon as she was not on the show and my other huge friends were not on the show and then it just kept working and and
And I didn't know why I don't know that I fully know why I think there's a tremendous amount of luck involved. And also we get incredible guests. I mean, the guests thing is its own machine where you know, once Bill Gates is on someone else who maybe was like, I don't know. You know it just it all some of it become self-perpetuating but I'll say and when we talked on the phone, I told you this that I learned a lot when we started doing live shows and we got to actually
Really interact with people who listen to the show and we'd hear their questions. And as I told you then I always notice in Sam Harris is live shows when people ask questions, it's just a it's a diatribe thesis on some kind of molecular biology like the real goal is clearly. I want Sam to think I'm smart. And so would I II glean from that is that they like that Sam smart. That's what they like about the show. That's what I like about the show. I like that he can argue well with other people and I'm exposed to really smart people so when we started taking questions,
They were all they were almost unanimously. Oh my God, I'm sorry. I'm wearing the sweat suit. I wore a skirt. But my thighs were sweating too much because I'm on my period And I had to go to Ross and buy the stupid sweatsuit for $5. Anyways, I was wondering what your shower routine has right? And then the next person we get up like I farted in the thing and now my friend won't sit with me and I was just like I was overwhelmed with how vulnerable all these people were. It's like they LED first with something kind of embarrassing or vulnerable about themselves and it
Until then where I was like well then that must be what they like about me and that must be what they like about the guests when they're on our Show versus other shows is that they seem to be more vulnerable or something. And so I guess that's it. And then I guess from that I would conclude it must be rare. It must be rare to hear people be that way or people would be listening
especially with the mixture of guests that you have on the show if that makes
Any sense, I mean, I think that vulnerability from real vulnerability not rehearsed one or two story vulnerability, but like true I haven't talked about this before vulnerability a real time. Yeah real time. Oh shit. I think I just backed into a corner vulnerability from both the tier one celebrity and Tier 1 experts is is quite uncommon.
So I think they have a safety net. I'll add you know, so everyone that comes on the show. We tell them up front you can cut anything out you want.
When you go home tonight, you're like I shouldn't tell that story about my brother. They'll probably his feelings will be hurt. They just tell us and we cut it out. So we're not 60 Minutes or the New York Times where we I have no journalistic obligation to not give people the right to cut shit out. Right? So I think I think what happens is they know that if they say something regrettable they can just get rid of it and then upon saying it I think they realize they feel different than they feared they were feel or they
You from our reaction that we relate and then there may be not afraid anymore that that came out in that time. It's like I know you just publish something really intimate, but it's like I've been less they when I tell people I've been molested I can just see in them. They're like, oh wow. He just said that and no one ran away. Okay, fuck I'm going to say it to yeah. I was too. I mean looked 25% or at least if a body keeps the score is an accurate book 25% of people had some sexual trauma.
Their childhood, I mean, so anytime you're with four people one person there had it's not rare 40% of kids have experienced physical abuse enough that it left a mark. I mean, these are not rare occurrences yet. We all feel so isolated in them and and unique and in at fault somehow. So yeah, I just think there's something about if you start people are inclined to match you, you know, you know when we were chatting
on the phone,
I was asking you how you prepare for episodes and it seemed to me and tell me if I'm misremembering this but just for people out there who might feel like they're just a collection of weaknesses that one of your let's say past challenges to select Sia is actually a superpower of sorts when it comes to podcast prep because you have such a developed memory.
That you don't need to rely overly. So on lots and lots and lots of notes which is part of the reason why I tend not to do video because I like to look at a lot of notes. I don't have that retention that you seem to have. Is that a fair description.
Yeah. I think what other dyslexics who I've met throughout the years what we seem to share in common. Let me back up and say there's a great chapter in a Malcolm Gladwell book. I want to say in the Goliath book about
For years and this is what I learned growing up that dyslexics or twice as likely to end up in prison, which makes total sense because you're going to fail out of school and you what are your options but it's since been revealed that also and this number is not right. So whatever the number is you're also twice as likely to become a CEO so it's like oh that's that's kind of interesting. It's like it can break you but also can become this asset. And so what I found from a lot of other dyslexics is that since you're not really getting anything off that
chalkboard that is just that's a roadblock. You're kind of forced to really develop a great oral memory. So like when people tell me a story I find that I just remember that, you know, I'll run into people that I haven't seen in five years and I'll be like, oh my God, didn't you and I may remember the story better than they do and so when I yeah research and I kind of I think out my thoughts and I as I'm learning about them questions pop up and I kind of job.
Them down on paper. But once just the act of me writing them they're pretty much in there and then so and yeah, I that must be a result of that. Dyslexia background where I can you know, hold on to that. Although it's getting worse all add that, you know, I have two kids and getting
older I
was on opiates for a few months
shipping a chipping away at the old prefrontal cortex. Yeah, you give your guests Final Cut
It's also something I do. I'm actually frankly surprised that more shows Don't Make That explicit that it's kind of shocking to me. I ended up modeling that on Inside the Actor's Studio because early all yeah early on I had hired I was introduced to someone who used to do research for Inside the Actors Studio and I hired them to review transcripts of some of the early episodes of my show to try to identify where I was sloppy where I could improve etcetera, which was a really useful exercise.
Sighs and so the question for you is how have you thought about working on interviewing or how have you most improved as an interviewer since starting the
show? I'm still really bad at this. I still give myself a see but I used to be an e is I just I I talk way too much. It's just it's as if I met you at a bar and I want your approval and I'm aware of that and I'm trying to get your approval and so I've
I've talked less and less and less over the last few years and it gets better better the the less I talk but again I am in an I will justify it a little bit in that I am so often trying to enact vulnerability which requires me to go first. It's almost like an AA meeting where it's like I share first and then maybe you're compelled to share back and so it's kind of required and then we get into this tricky situation where I mean It's Tricky for Monica is like how many
Fucking times. Can they hear me? Tell the story? Right? They got to be so bored of it. But at the same time the guests I have doesn't listen to the show. So they've not heard it and then I also feel like it's mildly unethical to cut out the part where I say, I was molested and then just cut right to them going like yeah. I was not you know, so it's a little it's a little dicey. It's not perfected by any stretch and I do end up talking more than probably people would prefer. But yeah, I've got more and more comfortable with it.
It I think also I originally when I started interviewing experts I am intimidated by them. I mean, I'm talking to Richard Dawkins like I read selfish Gene and just thought how could someone have thought of that, you know, 20 years of thinking this guy's brilliant. So my own fragile ego wants him to know I get your book. So I'm going to waste so much of this interview letting you know, I get your book and I just more and more. I'm I don't try to prove that the person I'm
Which is very hard again with the dyslexia baggage. I have a chip on my shoulder that everyone thinks I'm dumb no matter how much proof I get to the contrary. I still have to work through that fear.
So if you used to give yourself an e and now you give yourself a see aside from and your words not mine talking too much. What is improved and what do you most want to improve or is it just the volume of talking is are there other aspects?
You know
one thing I'll say that has evolved as I was trying too hard at the beginning to get people to be sharing something. We never heard in that again. I wanted it to be like an here's what happens. I'm always in a a meeting with other dudes and I hear some person share and I think God I'm so lucky to hear men talk about this. I don't think anyone not in a a gets to experience this and so I want everyone to have that and so then the people I have on I
I want Ben to with them having no a experience. I want them to jump right into that. And so I think I pushed pretty hard at the beginning and I've laid off and then sometimes I think if I laid off too much like there's some things but I am getting more confident with just when it's going to be that type of interview. That's great. It'll be that type of interview the they'll they'll I follow them more. I try really hard now to follow more than I previously tried to lead because they just
Repetitive. I you know, I have all these insecurities. I think we relate a little bit on this just like there's a while there where I was just looking at how many listeners we have and I'm just waiting for it to drop. I'm like, well this is going to drop I know the inevitable trajectory of all things. They even hit TV shows they just slowly and precipitously lose and there's better shows out there and then I get distract, you know, all these things and I just had to stop thinking about that. I just had to remember no no I did this with no expectations.
Didn't think a lot of people listen, I just love talking just fucking enjoy talking and then things will happen one way or another and so I pretty much I've sent me successfully gotten out of the my I haven't asked Rob with the numbers are in probably a year. No, maybe the first month of covid. I was like Curious what that had done but since then I haven't asked and that's kind of a good barometer for me of how healthy I am and and how much I'm getting my esteem from the right place. I know just think that I love talking to that person or not.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in doing prep for this that I read somewhere that it was confusing to you in a sense to see the podcast achieve escape velocity and become this Juggernaut while not working on it as hard as you head and other things that had produced less Stellar results. And and my question is do you think that is just something inherent to
The format or is there is there some aspect of you hitting your zone of genius and flow because precisely because you are not trying extremely
hard. I mean that could certainly be it. I think there's other factors to yeah the thing I kind of the example I gave was that I'm used to directing a movie where it's a two-year Endeavor like chips for me was at least two and a half years of my life for that's all I did and then it's all the
the whole outcomes decided on a Friday by 3 p.m. I know if I've completely wasted two and a half years of my life in that respect. I mean, I enjoyed the process so much but in that respect, yeah, not the outcome. I wanted at all and that that's happened to me twice on two different movies where I just I gave it two years of my life and then it just it flounder. So
yeah to show up and do something for three hours
and forth to work felt very like something's too good to be true here, I think.
A lot of that going like this isn't how it works. I'm supposed to sit in hair and makeup for an hour, which I don't want to do. Then I got to learn a bunch of lines and then I got a tediously shoot this scene and all these things and this is like no sit down shoot the shit and bow and it works. It's just very confusing. It's hard to understand why it would work. But yeah, I think some of it is like I didn't even know what expectations to have. I didn't know enough about podcasting to know if I was a failure or a success I can tell you what a successful.
All comedy movie is that you spent 25 million on I know you have to hit 13:5 that opening weekend for you know, but I didn't really know that so I wasn't even thinking about it. It's probably the thing in my life that has been purest in that. It was really just about the experience and not about the results and then lo and behold I ended up with good results when I didn't care which is so confusing. I try to tell this to like I have no advice for actors, but one is just you got to somehow convince yourself you.
Care if you get cast in this thing, it's the only way you'll be good in the audition. So you got it. Somehow trick yourself. I don't know how you're going to do it. But you know, I found a method for me to do it. And yeah, that's kind of seems to be the case here.
What is your methods
to for
audition yourself? Yeah.
Well a couple things I've been lucky enough that I've cast things now and I do know now that so often it's not about how good or bad you did is it people are right or wrong for stuff, you know, someone could have
I've been much better at it in theory, but they they're just not right. They don't there's something I don't know what it is. So recognizing is not personal helped from being on the other side of it and then also tricky myself and do if if I love acting if that's my what I'm claiming. I am as someone who loves to act in auditions just an opportunity to go act. So I just I get to go act in and that's something I supposed to love. So if I don't love going in acting in front of people then I'm probably doing the wrong.
Things so to see the audition itself isn't is an end in itself? Like I get to go act and then I also have this point of view now, which is like I'm going to show you what I would love to do in this movie or TV show and you may or may not like that and that may or may not be right for this TV show and that'll be okay because I really only want to do this thing and so getting ownership over. It's like I'd like to go be in your movie and act like this and that may or may not work for you. I won't take it personally.
Personally as I hope you won't take it personally that I don't want to go and shove a banana peel up my ass to get a laugh. That's just now what I want to do. So maybe neither of us want to do with each other ones do but occasionally those things are going to overlap beautifully and The more I've just been able to go. I'm excited to go show them this interpretation I have of this writing and that'll be that it's just the outcomes gotten a lot better. Once I switched into that mindset. I think that goes for a job interview to by the
I think if you go there show them who you actually are. You're better off being at the job where you being actually you is wanted then you trying to be fucking Eddie Haskell and everyone finds out eight months later. Oh, yeah. Guess what? This guy does not like doing research on the weekends.
That's not his bag you have
This incredible podcast with just as a lot of podcast. I mean, I'll speak for my podcast. I mean, it's an incredible Roi right? Like you said, it's not two and a half years in and then you find out on Friday whether it succeeded or failed means three hours in and yeah more likely than not once you have a loyal audience. It's going to succeed on some level. Yeah, has that changed what you say? Yes, and no to and how do you decide which projects?
Or invitations to say yes to now how is it changed? If at
all it City? I it's given me this insane freedom because I also grew up quite broke for a period of time and my family was very obsessed with climbing the financial ladder. So I'm obsessed with money and I have great fear and financial insecurity irrational completely irrational. I've had numbers throughout my whole life. I had this amount of number, I'd feel safe. I had this amount of money I'd feel
Safe and then I never felt safe. So first, I just want to own that it's a complete fear but having a source of income that has nothing to do with movies or television or commercials is so liberating for me because now really I only I'm lucky enough to only do stuff that I am excited to do. I don't actually have to think about the financial component. I wouldn't do something.
Motivated out of financial insecurity, which is very new for me for you know, it's three years old. I always I would always be tempted to take a movie. I liked less if the payday was twice as much and I've interviewed a couple people that grew up with wealth and I've watched them navigate their career and I've been envious of it Nick Kroll comes to mind. He has so much creative Integrity. He just does what fascinates him. I think he's a top.
Unity's to do quote bigger things or bigger paydays and he's just always stayed on his path of what makes what entertains him and I just envied that and you know, he grew up with a ton of money. He said it when I interviewed his fucking dad drum school to limousine like, mr. Drummond, you know, so I'm experiencing that two degree, which is like I really I just get to do things. I'm really excited about today and that could totally change the podcast could go away, you know,
I could be back but currently yeah, I get to do things. I'm super interested in. Alright. Alright, I'll do
them. We all have fears I have fears you have fears that you've certainly spoken about very publicly. If we look at the podcast your podcast and my understanding is it's skews female terms of listenership. You have clearly struck a chord with the leading with vulnerability. Do you ever fear straying outside?
Out of that or operating too far outside of a template that that appeals to your core listenership. Whereas does that not cross your
mind? Well, no, it totally does. I'm trying to be as smart about this thing as I can I a don't want to lose it and be I would like to grow it and so we're in this great situation where you and I have a laboratory and we can try things for very little investment right I can
I can try I'll tell you an example that just happened is I got interested in conspiracy theories as a result of having Bill Gates on and seeing all these crazy comments. I really had no idea what the hell they meant save the children. He's a pedophile what is going on? Right? So that kind of I got really fascinated with conspiracy theories. So I said to Rob hey find us a conspiracy theory expert and he found this guy David Ferrara. I can't pronounce his last name I can spell it for you, but he directed this this
Documentary tickled that I love and he also has a show on Netflix called Dark tourist and I and he is a journalist who investigates conspiracy. So I'm talking to him and I'm having the most amount of fun. I've had interviewing somebody in two years like I it's just candy and so I'm loving it and then we can kind of see from the results of that episode that people also loved it and I'm like well fuck I'd love to talk to that guy once a month.
And so I call him like do you want to do this once a month and like will pay you like you be a part of the show and he's like, yeah, I'm up for that and then we saw the response so it's like oh, that's awesome that that just kind of presented itself and revealed itself. And so I can't wait to do that. And then we've had a couple different things like that where it's just oh it worked for us and then it appears that worked for the audience. So let's let's do that again. And and yeah, I have the 300-mile goal of
I'd love to do this show four days a week. I would love to give people what I get from Howard Stern which is like, oh, I'm following this story, you know in a dream world Mondays candy, it's some super famous person you like and then you know Thursday's protein. It's the experts but maybe Friday is we give you some weird topics. We just learned about that. It gives you something to talk about on the weekend at your barbecue. Like I'd love to you know each day have its own thing.
in in not get stagnant and stay interesting and I have some faith that those things will present themselves the way this conspiracy thing did
so the podcast and when I say the podcast just to be clear people from talking about taxes podcast is so successful and so reliable and so appealing to so many sponsors if you wanted to make the decision tomorrow to do it every day you could
Could mean you could write if it's Sports you enough that you could do that. So why why wait why not do that soon? I'm not saying you should or shouldn't yeah serious.
Well, I have a kind of commitment to not do it just to do it. Right so like this David thing as a perfect example, like oh I loved it and I want to do it at a lot now and I don't want to just arbitrarily fill up days. I want to make sure that I'm passionate about each day.
And and excited to switch gears from an interview to maybe something more journalistic or whatever it is. And so I am committed to that to making sure that I'm super crazy passionate about it. And then also I have some some outstanding obligations. I'm on a show Top Gear that will come out in maybe January and I have 12 more. I got a film starting in February and I have a game show my wife and I are going to do so, there's certain things that I'll have to just be mindful of
of making sure they can fit within a schedule where I'm still you know, I'm doing for a week or something. But so I guess I see myself maybe not taking any more on are shit or on camera stuff and just doing this all the time because it is my favorite thing to do. Although Top Gear's insane. I just go there and I horse around and fast cars that someone else owns and then I leave and I don't have to deal with anything. I don't have the new tires on the back of it and people are excited when I act like a jackass.
As and yeah, so that's that would be hard to walk away from as
well Howard Stern. Yeah. I know you have a lot of respect for Howard Stern. Why do you have so much respect for him? And how are you guys different or similar?
Yeah, it's really interesting because I only like them a bit when he was on terrestrial radio. You know, I wasn't someone who a I was never up that early and I didn't commute anywhere. So you had to like turn it on in my house, which it was a foreign concept to me.
But once he became once he was on satellite radio, I could choose when I listen to him because it just replays and he had also evolved enough. I don't think I would have been on board for throwing bologna at girls asses and stuff. That wasn't really my Jam what I really immediately loved about him as what an amazing interviewer. He is he's just such a great interviewer and I love that his like I still find this very intriguing about him is that his fanbase is I would guess opposite of
I think it's mostly dudes. And so here's this guy who has this kind of dude fan base and and there's a lot of sexual stuff yet. He does Transcendental Meditation. He doesn't really drink he eats perfect. He's in love with his wife and it just monogamous to the core. I love this dichotomy of him. I thought it's interesting that he's speaking to all these guys yet is seemingly kind of different than his fan base and I also credit him for doing more for
say gay rights something. I always cared a lot about
You know, it doesn't help when I don't know Lena Dunham gives a speech about gay rights her fans already feel that way. They already are in step with her. It's not going to convert anyone and I always was just applauded him being so embracing of gay rights when his fan base. I don't think was that way that I just think that enacted way more progress than the left talking to the left and I think he's done that.
Kind of bravely with like supporting Hillary and having her on the show those most of his fans don't want to hear Hillary. So I just love that. He liked kept the ear of people open and was very very soft and gentle with evolving real-time himself. He's at so much personal Evolution and I think taking his audience along for that ride in a really unique way. I don't think too many people have done that
when you listen to us during interview because you mentioned he's
An interview where I would agree with that for you, what does that mean? What are some of the Tell-Tale signs or clues or characteristics for your like goddamn? That's really good. Well, the thing
that you're almost guaranteed to get in every single Stern interview is the person's going to say something they've never said before, you know, like if I'm a huge fan of Bill Murray or I'm a huge fan of Letterman. I mean, what could be more fascinating than Stern talking-to Letterman he doesn't talk to anybody.
And the notion that you're going to learn something about them that doesn't exist anywhere else is exciting. I think he has a monopoly on that and then also his passionate interest in people is infectious. And there are many people he's had on that. I think I don't like them going into it and I got to say with the exception of maybe three of his guests and I've listened to several hundred interviews. I
The person more after he talks to them. There's only a few times. I was like a person's kind of a dick. I wasn't expecting that. It generally goes the other way and there and I what I like about that is like I do believe that all these people we disagree with or are they are divisive. I do believe we were stuck somewhere with them and talk to them for two hours that just the humanity takes over. We're so much more similar than we are different and I just find his think like oddly life-affirming in
couraging like oh, yeah. I do like that. / I thought this person was this know they're a person who's afraid their kids are going to turn out shitty and that this and that, you know II like that experience.
Yeah, he's he is incredibly skilled and he can do the however, you put it throwing bolonia chicks asses. He can do that too. Uh-huh. He's a connoisseur of that. I remember growing up seeing him on TV and be like, you know,
Lesbians at 2 a.m. With Snapple commercials that was like my memory of ever was being 12 years old and having insomnia and watching Howard Stern on television, but when he wants to turn up the dial on Jedi interviewer, I remember listening to his Sheryl Crow interview and being really impressed with just how well he navigates with so much due diligence in preparation, but not seeming like he's reading off of any type of script.
Kept extremely skilled. I read related to Howard that and I want you to fact-check this but you wouldn't want to invite him on the show because you wouldn't want to feel like you owed him a favor or he was doing it as a favor if I'm getting that right? Could you expand on that, please?
Yes, aha.
I mean because of Howard Stern came to me and said I'll be on your show, but you have to like be a clown at my kids Bat Mitzvah big picture. I meant. Yeah. I know
I'd be I'd be
Delighted to owe him a favor. Don't get me wrong. I would want to owe him a favor, but I wanted to add one thing that gift. He has that you and I don't have which is he is the most skilled. There's no question. Also, he has a status that you and I don't have that actually has no matter who he's interviewing in deep desire of his approval, which is incredible. That's I mean there couldn't be a more powerful. I think Letterman had that people go out there and they really wanted Dave I certainly was dying.
I'm for Dave de like me when I was on the show. It was way more about getting him to like me then whatever was happening with the audience or what movie I was supposed to promote a singular goal. I want Dave Letterman to like me and I think he benefits from that a lot Howard Stern. I know I wanted him to like me when I went on. I don't think when people sit down with you or I it's like it's going to make or break their year or whether we ultimately like them or not. So I think we have more of an uphill battle, but I just know as a fan of the show and someone who knows him personally he does.
Want to do anything and I get it. I get it the you know, I want to do less and less and I imagine with more and more success I want to do even less and so I know he doesn't want to be on the show. I I've I have faith that if he were on it, he did enjoy himself and not regret it as much as he thought he was going to but I just know he doesn't want to so I just wouldn't I have his email I've never asked to be on the show. I will never ask him to be on the show. Hopefully I have said to Baba Booey once.
Look, he's promoting. This book our audience fucking buys books man. That's why we get experts mean there's a huge uptick if someone comes on the show with Book Sales, so I'm not even saying I want a favor. I'm just saying if you want to sell a lot of books the doors open and I just left it at that. But that was as far as I would go with inviting
him. Do you have I know Howard Stern would be a dream guest for a lot of people he doesn't want to be a dream guess. Yeah. Do you have any
Dream guests you have not already reached out to all right. Is there anyone really like one day?
Well, I gotta say the most shocking event of my life. It's the only guests have called my mom to brag about that. I knew was coming was Bill Gates. I just I saw that documentary on Netflix. I don't know if you've seen that inside bills
mind. I haven't
you I guarantee if you give it five minutes. You're going to plow through all four episodes. It's so good.
He is one of the Most Fascinating People to ever live on planet Earth. There's no question. So I just am obsessed with him and we didn't invite him on I just talked about him a lot because I'm obsessed with them and someone from his team called and said would you guys want Bill Gates and Monica called better than if she they'll she had just hit the lottery is like you are not gonna believe who just has to be on the show and my first thought was like Obama or Bill Gates like who would I
not believe
it was fucking Bill Gates, and I think he
The number one guy would I would have wanted to talk to you? But of course, I would love to talk to Obama. I mean, that would be awesome and then Bill Murray. I just you know, I'm pretty obsessed with Bill Murray and I know he doesn't do anything either. So the odds of that happening are very very slim. But yeah, I would love to talk to Bill Murray. He's he's a North star as far as just like, like I said, I brought him up at the beginning like breathe believe in yourself be calm.
It'll happen
perhaps another cliche question. I'm going to ask because I know people would enjoy hearing the answer and that is for people who ask you for advice related to podcasting because you must get it all the time from Friends. Also, I'm thinking of starting a podcast. I just started a podcast. I'm going to start a podcast. What do you say to people who let's just assume you want to spend a little bit of time and give an answer because there are close friend. Yeah. What do you say? What do you say to them? Well,
it's interesting because I think
Yeah, the friends of mine who have reached out. There are a little bogged down in the idea right in the concept and I don't think that's the more relevant aspect to be honest. I don't think like if you give a one-line description of why Howard Stern's been on the radio for 40 years successfully. It's not like shock jock who's not afraid to throw bologna at the I don't know how you sum that up. There's no the concepts irrelevant. It's him and if you look at why he's so
successful is that he's just fucking brutally honest. He tells everyone what he's thinking embarrassing stuff. I remember one time this was so great. He came in it was a Monday Morning Show. He was grumpy all morning and Robin's like you're grumpy, hon. He's like yeah. Yeah been grumpy for two days. What was it? Why why did I get grumpy? I was sitting all my God. I know when I got grumpy is right after I took a dump.
I know what happened. I was reading a fucking article that said Ashton Kutcher has a billion dollars and I was like how the fuck mind you he's friends with Ashton. So now that he's acknowledging that that would piss him off. I guess he has 500 million. It's so wonderful. Like here's a guy with 500 million. I'm sitting on a very nice toilet presumably and he's agitated that this other guy has a billionaire is so human and wonderful. I think most people would hide that about themselves. They
I wouldn't own that they're that shitty and Petty. And so I guess when people call me I'm like, yeah the concepts great and blah blah blah, you know, I may have a note or two about sustainability of a concept. Like I'll just go out. It feels a little limited to me because I won't that be done in 10 episodes or won't that be done in 40 whatever but mostly I just say like, you know, if you're going to do you got to make the decision that you're going to be a hundred percent honest or it's not worth doing and I don't think it'll work and so often the people that are calling me our other public people.
so that's kind of a big barrier for them understandably and I just don't know that it works unless you are maybe I mean if you have a real view of a procedural show, like let's say making a murderer are not making a murderer, but those wonderful girls who have that one women who have the best podcast my favorite murder if you have if you're covering a case every time yeah, I think maybe you could you could have a premise driven one, but you know, you better have a researcher you better be
Be a radial lab or This American Life. You got a team of journalists that are going to go out there and build this incredible show over the course of six weeks and edit it into 90 minutes. But if you're just going to drive the show, if you're the content then it better be like being your best friend or I just don't think it'll
work. Yeah.
What are you thinking about right now?
Well, I'm thinking that.
You have to like the format you choose. If you don't like the format you choose you're just not going to have the endurance also to do it for a long period of time and you're going to be if you are competitive and maybe that doesn't matter. Maybe you're just doing it for the love of the game and you don't care if anyone listens, but if you want to break through the noise, you need a certain degree of enthusiasm and endurance both of which will be lacking if you don't enjoy the format you choose.
It just seems so I agree fundamental as a decision you
why by the way I talked to some friends were there like, oh, I want it to be about X Y and Z and I'll go I'm just going to point out. I've known you for 12 years. You've never brought that topic up to me, but I can tell you the topic you bring up all the time, which is like Home Furnishing. I know you think cause you're a director or an actor or this you should be talking about that but you love Home Furnishing. That's what I know you like to talk about non-stop, like why isn't that
Your show is so I think first you just gotta go like what am I endlessly talking about? And I know I don't go eight minutes into a conversation at any party or I haven't asked did you get molested like or they say something and I think oh, I'm just curious like, oh is one of your parents like I noticed your husband is he's very quiet with your dad quite like I that's all I'm interested in. I want to know why we're all we've all landed in these spots and I think the clues are in your childhood. So that's all I talk about it.
He's
you know, and then that's all we talked about on the podcast.
Yeah, it's not it's you're not putting your not changing wardrobe too much and Ryan's of going on the show you
appear to be a voracious reader you read a whole lot. It seems are there any particular books that you gift to other people or recommend more than
others? Yeah. There's a number one. It's I can't stop talking about I've read it three times. Now. I will read it again soon is tighten. The the Ron chernow book about John D. Rockefeller Rockefeller. Have you read that?
Look, I haven't. Oh cover
I gotta tell you it's a very for someone I can already tell like you like I'm Blown Away with the fact that you would have had someone go over your transcripts and point out things that you're doing wrong or that you would listen to find the errors all the this is a very such a specific commitment to betterment which is fascinating and and and obviously very inspiring. That's why people adore you
I would have guessed Rockefeller was one way and then in this book I learn he's almost the opposite of everything. I would have guessed about him and that his approach to all these things was so unique and so confident. I don't know how this guy got this confidence his when he was running Standard Oil, which is a feat that will never be accomplished again. I mean the level of what he accomplishes is insane, but early on in the company he said
A
couch in his boardroom. He's a big believer in naps. He napped all every day now for a long time and he would have all the board members at the table, but he be laying on a couch and he does in and out and he listened to them talk and he knows in any just pop up with like one idea and that was good for him. And then he walked home early that day. Like he's he was not what I would have thought and just his weird confidences. I just loved it and then all of the things he has impacted is
is there's not been an American that's had a bigger impact on life than him. There was no research medicine that didn't exist. He's the he funds the first research medical facility. He's the one who says man. If you go get a procedure and Tennessee those doctors have a totally different set of knowledge than the ones in New York. No one's doing the same thing. Why is that? Oh because all these medical schools. They don't have a unified curriculum. Okay, who has the best curriculum in the country?
Johns Hopkins, what if I take that curriculum and I pay universities to adopt it like he unifies medicine. He gets rid of hookworm. He just tackled anything. He was so cocky and confident in the things he tackled and he succeeded he's as in a mirror amazing person II can't read that book enough. You've read it three times. Yeah. I might read it
again. What do you get because there's an information appeal learning the Bayou and so on but you have a great memory you
You probably get that after two passes. What do you gain from reading it a third time a fourth time.
Well funny enough. It's a big book. So I do
forget a lot. It's not this is not this is not a you know, Charlie Brown. Yeah straight even though these are big
bucks. Is it even as I'm talking you there is a period where he somehow took over all the shipping routes on Lake Erie and I can't remember right now the exact mechanics of how he did that and so that'll interest me and how again, did he get
Napoli of the Lake Erie ship, you know, that's interesting. I got I want to find that out. I can't explain it. It's because it's kind of like watching a favorite movie. It's like I enjoy it each time around and then also I always recommend all the Jon krakauer books. He's my favorite writer probably I yeah, I know I wouldn't even know what you want to say is the best but we're men win glory is an incredible book. If you read that one. I have not it's the against writer though. You'll see a theme Here. I love when I find out something's
it is what I thought is why I like Malcolm Gladwell, right? Every single chapter is about some common sense assumption that we find out through testing is counterintuitive. I find that to be the most pleasing experience of going. Oh my God, I'm dead wrong about that. I would have thought that doesn't make any sense. I love that Pat Tillman. I remember when Pat Tillman quit the NFL in join the Army because he wanted to go to Afghanistan and when I heard that I thought
What could explain that either here or my my guess is he's either a religious zealot and this is a crusade against Islam.
Or to this guy has done something so dark in his past that he has to atone in this insane way. Those are my only guesses. I read that book We're Men win glory and in it's the Pat Tillman story and I find out quickly. It's not any of those things at all, and that this person had this level of Integrity. I certainly don't possess and I don't think I've ever met anyone that has his level of Integrity real quick. He was like last round pick to the Arizona Cardinals.
Is he becomes one of the best safeties in the league? He gets offered eight million dollars to go to st. Louis on a four-year contract Arizona wall and give them a one-year contract for like a million bucks and he stays in Arizona. He's like these people bet on me when no one would I'm going to stay and get less money with less security because the they deserve that I wouldn't have done that. I would have fucking been shopping for a house in st. Louis or whatever team it was and thing after thing in his life was like that and so just like this incredible human that I've
ever gotten to meet in real life that I get to meet through this book and its opposite of everything I assumed.
And he was in a jingoistic a patriot, you know, he wasn't a in fact, he got immediately disillusion because he got deployed to Iraq and said of Afghanistan. He didn't think we should be in Iraq. Then he goes to Afghanistan. He's killed in Friendly Fire. There's a cover up his brother uncovers it in the family and they speak out about it. They're like, you will not use him as the poster boy for the military because he was misled and lied to and then he was killed by a friend.
It's wild
tighten by chernow. Also at the top of the list. I'll trade a recommendation limor but Genghis Khan in the making of the modern world. If you haven't read that I can't recall the author offhand.
Hold on. I gotta write it down on - Little People. Yeah, so I can't spell Genghis Khan, but I'll figure it out ganga skon. Yeah. And what's what's the subtitle Genghis Khan? Well,
okay Genghis Khan and the making of the modern world. Oh,
Hello, this is right up my
alley. Yeah, yeah this yeah this this book it sounds like we'll be right up your alley. It was recommended to me. I'm not going to name his name because I don't know if you would want it to be named but recommended to me by one of the best-known CEOs in the United States and
it's outstanding and if you want to talk about a portrayal of a person and their role in history that is counter to almost everything you might believe and all the preconceptions you might have just the first 50 pages will leave
you just
absolutely dazzled by how much of an impact on things we take for granted now Genghis Khan had so that's that's that's a good
Can I just tell you my I have almost no knowledge of him other than didn't then he invent the shock troop the the stewardess Stirrup Rider on a horse utilizing the mass of the horse to strike other soldiers. Was that his big invention Warfare
wise there were a lot of military innovations. Aha. I don't recall using the weight of the horse Okay up. Certainly. He was very good at amassing and building an army.
Me by absorbing the engineers and Warriors of the Concord also very tolerant even supportive of all religions as long as they made sure to pray for Genghis Khan at some point. Haha. Sure that's a that's a small request and from from a logistics standpoint. I mean the the type of warfare using
These
mean his scouting missions would defeat some of the most capable armies in the world. These were like Advance teams that were scouting and they would defeat armies there would be considered, you know, the u.s. Or China of its day in terms of military power and his impact and the impact of his activities on Logistics. I mean ranging from postal services at to Beyond wow.
The sheer magnitude of what he did even compared to Alexander the Great. I mean it's staggering. So it's a it's a cool read and don't really feel
like some actual percentage of people on planet Earth have his genes.
Yeah, there's some absurd exercise I get they get excited. I was that real
I would need
Monica to fact-check that I don't I think it might be apocryphal but who knows? I mean it wouldn't it wouldn't surprise me and it would also not surprise me if it works.
Saturated. Well, I have a I have a salacious personal experience. I'll tell you about that is probably inflammatory, but you know Marlon Brando had that Island down in Bora Bora and my wife shot a movie there and we were there for six weeks and I got to all the little islands in the atoll. I had gone on diving things and I met a lot of locals and it is rumored there that he had that he had had like a dozen or so kids, right and I'm
I knew this is this is very anecdotal. But I I personally met several people that were clearly half Brando and half Tahitian, I guess and I thought wouldn't it be hilarious? If all of a sudden not not unlike when the the Samoans overtook the NFL if all of a sudden there is just a sweep at the Oscars for like a decade.
Stranger things have happened. So he might amount for
some percentage there in Bora Bora.
Well Dax, this is this spit a lot of fun. I want to ask just a few more questions. Yeah, and and then wrap up for this this round one, you know, you've been very forthcoming with a lot of your challenges over time e you do something that I respect a great deal, which is not leading.
With solely the Highlight Reel. I think that that's a real service to people who are suffering as we all are and various ways often self-inflicted wounds and I wanted to know if you have perhaps a favorite failure and what I mean by that is a mistake or something at the time that you viewed as a failure that in some way set you up for Success later. There's anything that you gained from tremendously that at the time seemed like a shortcoming or a failure.
ER where a
mistake? I mean the one that that that jumps out immediately and is most relevant to this conversation is you know, I was heartbroken when chips didn't open because back to my identity crisis. I had a three-year stretch. We're in my mind I decided I wasn't an actor anymore. I was a writer director and I like that it felt loftier well and
Substantively, I feel a lot more Pride over having written a script then having acted. I do think it's harder. So some of its were worthwhile. But I had decided I was a writer director and that was going to be the next ten years of my life chips had tested really high at Warner Brothers and they immediately put me on another movie that I took over from some other people and so I was doing that and then overnight that ended II did not have that identity anymore and they had already commissioned chips to I was already beginning to write that.
And I got very depressed like for 3-4 months, maybe more I started doing math and thinking okay. Could I retire now like it? Could I be done now by live on this amount of money blah blah. That's that's what I'm spending. Most of my time thinking about is whether I was completely done and that's when I wanted to do the podcast. I
I was ruminating on so much stuff. I was thinking about my own life and identity and trajectory in the failure and and then I started it in the wake of that and and I think because I was so interested in Failure at that time. I say often on the podcast. I have nothing to learn from someone holding a me over their head. I just won't I'll never be holding an Emmy over my head, but I can relate if that person cheated on a someone they love and regret it I can relate to
The failures that led up to that that that's something I can learn from. That's how I learn from people in a a I don't ever learn from someone telling some victory story. It's always how they fucked up and realized it and so now in hindsight, you know had I have the thing I wanted which was a being a writer director. It's so time-consuming. My kids were one in three when I finish that movie, maybe two and four and I would
Gone, I would have taken bigger movies. I would have been way more into that. Ironically. I would have ended up making less money. So like this thing that I had no desire to do in this this complete collapse of this identity. I had and desire turned out to be something that allows me to be with my kids at on them at home all the time. My wife can take work out of town if she wants I can travel and do this like this life that came out of this.
Failure this 20-year Pursuit turned out to be something better than I had even thought to imagine. I didn't even know that this could exist. So yeah, that's that's a very obvious one for me. Now that I look back and go like fucking thank God that thing failed I would have been right in that movie then directing that movie then trying to get them to give me a hundred million to do this one and but by the way movie business is collapsing so I would have been doing all that and in a time it's almost impossible to do that. So, yeah, I got so lucky in that.
I'm not performing crazy enough.
What a story that makes me think of something a friend of mine said I can't recall who it was but you know, sometimes you need life to save you from what you want. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm and what a great. Let me go
through your own life. Right and you think of the times you got exactly what you wanted and then the times you didn't get the thing you wanted and what I know most is that I don't know what's best for me the things I got that I wanted did not turn out.
Out or result in anything. I had forecasts or dreamt of and yet all these things I didn't want to do. I didn't want to be on TV. I had decided in my egotistical mine. I was a movie actor. I didn't want to be in TV I reluctantly was on this show Parenthood because I was at a lull in my career. Best experience I've ever had as an actor open up the doors for me to act in so many other things without question. The best thing that ever could have happened to me as an actor and it was the thing I didn't want to do and you know, I got to do the exact thing I want to do.
Ride wheelies on motorcycles in a movie I directed and it fucking didn't turn out. Yeah.
So just maybe two more questions here. This is going to be question that sometimes sometimes turns out well and often times does not so we'll see where it goes. Why was it
hard? What was that? Flaccid or hard
say I'd say I'd say this is I say this is a clear head half chub question. So we're going to go with that and it is if you had a billboard metaphorically speaking to get any.
two word image out to billions of people
could be anything non-commercial what might you put on that billboard. Mmm.
Wow, that's a bets a big. I feel like that would take me like a couple weeks to come up with the right answer for that. Let's see. Let's see, so I'm driving on the road. I'm going to see a billboard and what I most want to see
Okay, I got it.
I think it's message. I most need to hear ya dummy would be be as kind and forgiving to yourself as you are to the people you love.
I'm pretty fucking brutal to myself and I listen to a guy in a meeting. So share the exact same thing. I just did my God poor guy. It's hard. Of course that happened. But for me, I'm like you are the piece of shit. I always knew you were here's more proof. You don't deserve love from anyone.
That is the Billboard. I would also most need to see so I appreciate that answer.
And Dax, I really appreciate you as a student of Life as a presenter of personal truth including when it is uncomfortable and I really believe that the exploration of vulnerability and story and sort of shared difficulty on your podcast is a real service.
To to your listeners, so I want to commend you for that and thank you for that. Thank you. You're welcome.
And I know exactly the people that want to they need to hear it the mouse or us boys and it only girls are listening feel like we're the ones that just you know, it's all about weakness and strength for us. It's so stupid. Oh, yeah.
Well, you're you know, I am probably the mirror image of your podcast in terms of demographic. I would guess that I'm around you just between 60 and
Seventy percent male so certainly a lot of men and women will have listened to this episode and you've given a lot of food for thought where can people find you learn more about you. Where would you like them to check you out? Well, they should read my
autobiography horsepower story. Now, I'm on Instagram. I think just under my name Dax Shepard and then yeah and then armchair.
If anyone would like to listen to the podcast it's on all of the so Rob tells me it's on all of the many platforms people consume their podcasts on and yeah, I think that's it for me. I hate Twitter. I'm on it, but only to promote the show what a cancerous black hole that places. Whoo.
Yeah, a lot of people peeing in the pool on Twitter ruins the fun. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to have this conversation.
Station
Dex. Yeah, it was awesome. I can't wait to interview you yeah. Yeah, but like what will give it a like a month low so we both get interested in each other again
separation makes the heart grow fonder. So we'll do that and to everyone listening thank you for tuning in and you can find show notes for everything we discussed including aren't your expert including horsepower his brand new autobiography and and and all of the social handles and everything.
Tinder blog forward slash podcast and until next time be safe. And if your compassion does not include yourself, it is incomplete to quote Jack kornfield. Mmm.
That's good. That should be the billboard. Yeah.
Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off number one. This is five. Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? And what do you enjoy getting a short email for me? Every Friday that provides a little morsel of
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Everything it's performance apparel, but it can be used for working out. It can be used for going out to dinner at least in my case. I feel very comfortable with it super comfortable super stylish and I just want to read something that one of my employees said she is an athlete she is quite technical. Although she would never say that I asked her if she had ever used or heard of the Ori and this was her response. I do love their stuff been using them for about a year. I think I found them at REI first.
My partner t-shirts that are super soft but somehow last as he's hard on stuff and then I got into the Supersoft cotton yoga pants and jogger sweatpants. I live in them and they too have lasted their stylish enough. I can wear them out and about the material is just super soft and durable just got there Clementine running shorts for summer and love them. The brand seems pretty popular constantly sold out in closing and I'm abbreviating her but in closing with the exception of when I need technical outdoor gear the only brand I bought in the last year or so for yoga running loungewear.
That lasts and that I think look good. Also, I like the discrete logo. So that gives you some idea that was not intended for the sponsor read that was just her response via text view or E. Then spelled bu Ori is designed for maximum comfort and versatility. You can wear it running you can wear their stuff training doing yoga lounging weekend errands or in my case again, going out to dinner really doesn't matter what you're doing. Their clothing is so comfortable and
That looks so good. And it's non-offensive. You don't have a huge brand logo on your face. You'll just want to be in the vaults time and my girlfriend and I have been wearing them for the last few months there men's core short KO re the most comfortable line. Athletic short is your one short for every sport. I've been using a kettlebell swings for runs you name it? The bank's short. This is their go to land to see short is the ultimate versatility. It's made from recycled plastic bottles or what I'm wearing right now.
Now which I had to pick one to recommend to folks out there or at least two men out. There is the Ponto performance pants and you'll find these at the link. I'm going to give you guys you can check out what I'm talking about, but I'm wearing them right now. They're thin performance sweatpants, but that doesn't do them justice. So you got to check it out po nto Ponto performance pant for you ladies. The women's performance. Jogger is the softest. Jogger. You'll ever own Fiore isn't just investment your clothing. It's an investment in your happiness and for you
Dear listeners, they're offering 20% off your first purchase. So get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on the planet. It's super popular. A lot of my friends have now noticed are wearing this. And so am I the Ori clothing.com forward slash Tim? That's beat you Ori clothing.com Tim. Not only will you receive 20% off your first purchase, but you'll also enjoy free shipping on any us orders over $75 and free returns.
Ends. So check it out the Ori clothing.com Tim. That's Vu Ori clothing.com Tim and discover. The versatility of the Ori clothing. This episode is brought to you by Aura. Oh you are a it is the only wearable that I wear on a daily basis or is the company behind the smart ring that delivers personalized sleep and health insights to help you optimize just about everything and I've tried every device out there that you can imagine.
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