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Alpha to die. Can run flat out for a half mile. Before my hands start shaking the millions living tissue over metal endoskeleton.
Hello boys and girls, ladies and germs, this is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show. Today's guest is dr. Gabor mate, you can find him online at dr. Gabor maté.com. That's g. A b, orm 80 e.com on Twitter at Dr. Dr. Gabor maté on Instagram at Gabor maté MD, dr. Mattei is a renowned speaker and best-selling author. He's been on the podcast before and it was a very popular episode. He is highly sought after for his expertise on a range of topics that
Food addiction, stress, and childhood development, dr. Monty has written several best-selling books including the award-winning in the realm of hungry, ghosts. I highly recommend subtitle close encounters with addiction. When the body says, no exploring the stress disease, connection and Scattered. How attention deficit disorder originates and what you can do about it, he has also co-authored, hold on to your kids. Why parents need to matter more than peers, his Works have been published internationally in nearly 30 languages. His new book is
The myth of normal subtitle trauma illness and healing. In a toxic culture, Gabor. Welcome back to the show. It's nice to see you famous very nice to be back with you. I thought we would start with a little ketchup because we haven't connected in some time. And I would love to just hear how you are spending your time in the last, whether it's year or two. I know it's hard to normalize things, perhaps a pun intended with the subject matter over covid. But how are
You allocating your time these days, actually covid. If I may say, so personally did me a favor because I had this book to write, and it was a much bigger project than I even I'd imagined and I had all these travel commitments, which fortunately, I had to cancel, which allowed me to stay at home and finish the book, which took me a year longer than expected his. So the last three years have been pretty much dominated by book writing and because of covid, I've been doing a lot of teaching online
Fine, lot of webinars. Now that I'm free again are doing extensive traveling one more time. The most exciting thing that happened to me if I can jump right into it. Jump right in three weeks ago. I participated in a plant ceremony with some indigenous Canadians here, in British Columbia. They invited me to come and help support their healing process. And I'm telling it and it was a life-changing experience being with these indigenous.
Folks on their land, you may have heard the delegation of Canadian indigenous leaders went to the Vatican, where the pope issued, a very to my mind. Paltry apology for the suffering than had been inflicted on generations of Canadian, native children, and he's residential schools where they were tormented and sexually physically abused spiritually suppressed. They died in large numbers, their bodies are just being discovered now. So, working with these
People, the suffering and the sorrow and sadness and the pain is unfathomable.
But the dignity, the beauty, the connection to Nature, the honoring of spirit, the welcome, the lovely resilience was also just absolutely humbling to behold so died. I went there to help them but I got helped more than I think. I gave it was a profound profound experience so I'm still glowing with it three or four weeks later. So that's was foremost in my mind. These days is how to embody and apply those
Things in my own life but also in my
work
well, I would love to stay on that for a little bit because you mentioned something that only recently came to my attention. I was actually in New Hawk tribe territory about six to eight weeks ago and learned for the first time of these Mass Graves and much of the history that you're describing which is horrifying of course in the the Ripple effects of that carry over.
Well, into today, in the case of this particular Ceremony, this medicine experience. I know you have and for people listening, if they don't have the context, you have a lot of exposure and experience with use of different medicines including but not limited to psychedelics within that including but not limited to Ayahuasca, for instance, in this particular case, was it sort of a syncretic blend of indigenous First Nations
Practices and then plants or otherwise that are used in other places. It was a plant that goes here locally and even though there's no artifactual evidence of them having used this plant before, but when they used it, they said it's in their DNA to feel so familiar to them and it's hard to imagine that they wouldn't have used it traditionally because they know every plant, every blade of grass,
Every leaf, every bud, every flower the medicine Lee uses of everything.
I mean, the connection to Nature is beyond belief. So it's also beyond belief that they would not have known about the plant that we used, which goes on their land. And again, it felt so familiar to them. So, for then, it wasn't a question of something foreign coming in. It was something very much aligned with their own experience. What I brought to it was sort of Western psychology and my capacity to ask the right questions and to delve into the
Traumatic imprints, that they carry because of this tragic history, but it was very much in line with their own Traditions. It's a few follow-up questions related to that, and you can feel free of course as with all my questions to not answer those that you don't want to, but yeah. In the case of the plant is that something you can describe more specifically. Is that something that you prefer not to mention? No is My Strong seller site. Yeah you would have to imagine like you mentioned given the sheer density of sort of philosophy much.
Shrooms in that region that yeah, they would have had experience almost almost certainly is like peyote and Western areas in the United States, how would they not know, a given that they know every other plant? What was your unfolding or the experience? Why do you think it was impactful for you personally? Well, first of all, the context because I'm with people that are just so honest and so raw and so open and so welcoming
So that I've never felt more at home than Google people even though I never met any of them personally before. So there was not then was the experience and we all had to order some words before the ceremony about what our intentions were. And I ordered two words and love and presence, then I experienced them both.
I experienced love from myself in a deep way which was new for me. Actually, I can't put it into words because it's not a concept. It's not a intellectual exercise, it was actually an experience of full body experience is what it
was.
And yeah, I experienced the presence and you've had these experiences that there are ineffable. There are almost. You would take a poet somebody with the much more power.
Imagination that I have to actually some of depicted in words.
But I tell you I came out of it and then I sat on the porch outside as a beautiful son evening. We're looking at this beautiful mountain here in British Columbia. There were bison in the field below us.
and this, of course in the native,
Experience or imagination. Everything has a story. So, the mountain itself is a story, you know, some looking at this beautiful mountain and this bison and the sunset, then nobody have to convince me that nature. Contains us all, not at that moment. Anyway, for people who have not
Heard any of you are backstory. This first hand experience of love that you mentioned is not being. Let's just say a common experience for you, maybe it's worth just for a second rewinding. If you wouldn't mind just sharing a bit of why that is and our first conversation, you told the story and perhaps you could just fill in some of the gaps of growing up in or certainly being born in Hungary, having relatives perish in the Holocaust and then even after
After the deportation of Jews, it stopped, Jews were still being persecuted. And if I recall correctly, murdered by sort of the fascists who were in your, however, at that time and you were handed off to your mother handed you off to someone else because she wasn't sure if she would survive. Is that am I remembering that correctly? Well, let me tell you a story around this. So, sometimes after I met you I went to Peru to lead a retreat for medical people with the plant is
Oscar when I say leave the retreat, I don't lead the ceremonies, I don't hand out the Brew. I help people formulate intentions beforehand and integrate experiences afterwards, but these people 23, people came from all over the world, health professionals. Doctors psychiatrists psychologists who work with me in this jungle setting with Native healers. So I did the work. The first day went really well. Then we had the ceremony the first night. Now, my experience
Ernst is ceremonies is that everybody else has deep ceremonies and I don't because I have this very thick skull and just nothing gets through, you know, that's my little self myth, you know, so these she people will native Maestro's and my straws shamans sit down in front of me. Intern, and each of them chance to everybody. So they were 24 of us. Each of them gets chanted. 26 times in turn by each of these my stores. Meister's, they sit down in front of me and I say, okay. Do you worst
You know,
and very little happened for me next morning. They send a delegation to me. They said, we can't have you on ceremony because you have such a dark dense energy in you, that this is affecting everybody else in our Eco Rose, our chance, can't penetrate your Darkness.
Furthermore they said we can't even have you working with your people during the day because you're still be affecting them. So they fired me from my own ceremony, for my own between literally they had no idea, they were not impressed with the fact that I've written books or published in Omni languages or any of that, they don't my reputation, they just know, I'm this guy from the north, it was Doctor, you know, and they said, here's what happened to you. We think you've worked with so many traumatized people that you've absorbed their traumas and you haven't
Did I love yourself? And furthermore, they said, we think when you were very small, you had a big scare and you haven't got over it yet. The first chapter opens with the painting that my wife did of me as an infant. This is from a photograph looking at a camera.
With absolute Terror in my face and a pediatrician who came to see me when I was separated from my mother at a year age. She said, she'd never seen such Terror in the eyes of a human being as she saw in my little eyes.
These shamans picked that up like that and what they said was we're going to assign one of you to work with you alone because we want to heal you. So I had five private ceremonies with a Sean and all to me and it ended beautifully but when you talk about that early scared that I had these people picked up on it instantaneously and this Maestro chanted to me over five nights three or four hours.
Bars. And by God he cleared so much out of me. I couldn't believe it at the end.
Do you think at some point we will be able to and I'm not saying this needs to happen. Certainly doesn't for the therapeutic effects to be seen. Do you think the kind of rationalist physicalist Western Scientific perspective will find some type of explanation for what you're describing. If we assume for the time. Being that, that something is, in fact happening, it's not purely placebo effect. I mean, even if it is, that's something, but do you think there will be a
White at any
juncture in the near future, where we'll have some explanatory capabilities was frustrating for me, not just for me, by the way. Is that we have so much science already to explain such experiences and many more Amazing healing experiences. We actually have the Western science to prove it or to explain it. And was frustrating, is what's been called the science practice Gap.
We're on the one hand, we have the science but the science hasn't penetrated their medical practice Consciousness. So there's a gap between not only Western medicine and traditional understandings, but does even a gap between Western science and Western Medical practice in so many ways.
It's in terms of my own experience there, certain traumatic imprints that are ingrained in the emotional circuits of my brain in the very basic survival mechanisms of my brain in my lower parts of my brain.
And these are neurological circuits embedded with a certain kind of experience in a certain, kind of belief, and a certain kind of reactive pattern. So the belief that I'm impenetrable and everybody else can heal but I can lead other people to healing but I can't get there myself. That itself is an imprint of Toronto.
Because an infant a small child being traumatized, they think is going to go on forever.
And then that experience of being in the moment and not seeing end of it, then becomes the belief.
So then I take that belief into the ceremony and I sit and I'm saying do your worst, you can't get through the disc brain.
in other words, I'm sabotaging my own experience not meaning to
But that's on imprinted now. These people don't buy my story, they see through to the fear. In fact, they even into it the experience that it must have been a very early scared that I
had.
So this guy just holds me like a father
And he loves me and he chance to me, it's almost sometimes like a lullaby being sung to a baby.
Well guess what a sense of safety arises in me and my name is safety arises. My whole visceral Body Experience, changes my heart. My breathing, my intestines, my muscles. They're all in the different state.
Much more receptive.
And this goes on for five nights and by the end of it, I come out a different person. Now, when I say, accommodate different person, believe me, I travel home, and all of a sudden that different person becomes a memory and, you know, I struggle again with a lot of the same old stuff, but I'm struggling with them, from a much more informed perspective. I know it's no longer my absolute reality, which is a huge difference. It's not that hard to understand really
Because we know that the brain can develop new circuits and new ways of understanding in response to new experiences with that five nights. Just so I understand that was five consecutive nights of drinking each night yourself or were you not drinking on each night five nights over 10 days. So we had a ceremony and then we had a day of rest when I would just meditate and do my yoga and walk the Jungle the rain forest paths and we'd my spiritual books and contemplate.
And then back into ceremony. So yeah it was a 10-day private retreat is what I ended up having. It sounds like everybody one in that situation and let me tell you this thing, aftermath so afterwards. The shamans told me that when the new dad 24, healers, you know, doctors psychologists psychiatrists are coming from the West. They thought we'd have an easy job because they said, we observe a lot of Toronto from other people, as well, but we cleared out of ourselves.
So, we expect that you would have done the same thing and they said they've never worked with such a heavy bunch of people in their whole lives. Then he's Western doctors because we work with all these traumatized people all the time, we don't understand, trauma, let alone. Do we know how to clear it out of ourselves. So they had a big job on their hands, the shamans. And those people that participated had a huge experience and then they went back to their work, so maybe then it changed completely. Do you think there will be a point, maybe?
You can wear, you can yourself do that, self-care of clearing whatever you may absorb. So to speak by say patients in a clinical
practice.
I'm doing it now. I have to. What do you do? I do meditation practice actually, when I learned from one of my colleagues dr. Daniel Siegel, who's got this bill of awareness that I'm practicing, I have a yoga practice that I do pretty much every day now,
Every day I go swimming, I swim 2K everyday or do some other kind of work out.
I pay a lot more attention to my own needs that I used to. Do you not the meditation? But rather the yoga is that still think last time we spoke this some time ago. So maybe it's changed. But sadhguru based. Is it still that or is it something else? No, it's his yoga. I don't want to particularly tie it to his particular personality with which I have some concerns. I just don't like hero worship. Our Guru worship of any kind, but yeah, the yoga
Through his course, has been very helpful to me. So, let's dive into the new book, you've written many books. If certainly I would imagine thought of many possible books, you could write. Why spend multiple years on this one in my head and thought of multiple books that I could have written. This is the one that's been calling me and yelling at me for the last 10, 12 years and literally took 10 years of research. In fact, very many times. I thought I wasn't up for it.
It, I thought it was just too big. I thought this time there's an inspection of a Nigerian, in Hungarian, which goes having struck your axe into a very big tree. You know, like this time you've taken on too much, you know, and many times believe me, I even had the contract for the book.
Five, six years ago and I gave the money back. I said, I can't do it. It's too much for me, but it just kept calling me and calling me and calling me. And then one day, it just woke up and said, okay I'm here you got to do it and that's when the new title came to me and
That's when I started working on it again and so here it is. But so it's been a calling. It's really been calling me. I can't put it in another way. Nothing else has been calling me. This has been calling me. How does that show up for you? Is it like it's Omnia that it's ideas that are coming to your mind. How does that calling? I just love to know how that actually shows up or manifest for you excitement. Yeah. Like I want to do this.
There's a visual knowledge that there's something right about this.
When I say the something right about it, I don't mean that I'm correct about everything I say. Or I just mean right for me, that this is what I need to do when I see a newspaper article or see a new book title right away. Oh yeah, this speaks to us. I've got I got to read that article. I have to read that book. So the world keeps feeding me.
Information. That demands to be metabolized and synthesized and written and spoken. And then over the last few years, you know, as we've seen crisis upon crisis
It just occurs to me, somebody's going to write about.
How life in this system affects the health of human beings. So it's visual excitement, its ideas, its information at just keeps pouring at me like a lava flow and this Justice coupled with the fear that I'm not big enough to do this, you know. So it's a combination of a lot of things but even that fear, that I'm not big enough to do, this is a sign to me of the importance of what I'm talking about. When I say the importance, I don't mean to
The grandiose. I mean, the importance to me.
If it wasn't that important that wouldn't be so afraid of it, that's what I mean. But we can launch into a story. I have a few cues here jumping off points in front of me and tell me if this makes any sense as a direction to go. And what I have in front of me is the story of how trauma can inflict an affect everyday, life story of Landing in the
airport,
would you like to grab that baton and run with it?
Well sugar and this relates to what you were asking me about before and there's a my early history. So this is when I was 72, six years ago, I'd been on a speaking trip to Philadelphia. I spoken on addiction, the link that I draw between childhood, trauma and addiction, is you and I have talked about this, it was well received on the way back. Air, Canada, pumps me up the first class, so I couldn't be more comfortable. I land at the airport, my wife is meant to pick me up and I get a text.
As I Lansing, I haven't left home yet. Do you still want me to come? And from feeling very comfortable and very pleased with myself. If I can put it that way, I go into a rage. I just
I text back, never mind and I think the taxi home
So, imagine the indignity of having to take a taxi home, you know? And I arrived home. I, here's the deal. My wife's an artist, when she's in the studio painting, everything else disappears. I've only known this for over 50 years. You see that she hasn't my bladder, she has no husband, she has no hunger. That's just her, and the art. And that's what happened. So, what am I so excited about when I come home? I don't even talk to her. I just grunt at her.
I keep this up for a day and she finally says knock it off already. And as I say, it's a tribute to move Decades of progress that I could knock out after 24 hours because in the past, I might have Karen for days like that. And what's that? All about? Well, my mother gave me to a stranger as you mentioned earlier, and I didn't see her for five or six weeks. When I was a year old, she did this to save my life when I saw her again. I didn't even look at her for several days.
And that's so small children do on separation because the brain says there was so hurt when you abandon me that I'll never open myself a began to that kind of vulnerability. I won't even look at you. Now, that imprint from our old is, were showed up. When my wife said, I'm not picking you up, we're at least I'll be late picking you up. So all of a sudden the woman on whom I'm relying for presence and support and love is unavailable.
And what gets triggered is just childhood imprint of Abandonment and rage and despair. And so this is a trauma shows up in our lives. It doesn't have to be as dramatic as that, but it shows up in our relationships and how we feel about ourselves in our, we interpret events and how we react to things that happen in our world view. So trauma has this sort of invisible, Dynamic, that shapes so much of her.
Of our lives. But we tend not to be aware of it. And until we are become aware of it. It can run our lives, you can run our personal lives. You can also run our politics and our culture. Let me come back to the rage for a second because I would love to get your advice or at least hear of some of your learnings over the last decades because I recall from our first conversation that you know, in your 40s, you're successful.
Doctor, you're driven workaholic. You had challenges in your marriage. Your kids were at least based on my notes is afraid of you at points because of your rages, what have you learned about rage and anger? How do you relate to it or metabolize it? And I ask is someone who has a long history of running on anger as a, maybe a corrosive fuel of sorts. So I would love to just hear you.
And on that in any way. That makes sense. Sure. So there was a great neuroscientist, his name was Yak accept, bien que es e PP who tragically died a few years ago of cancer and he distinguished a number of brain systems that we share with other mammals, they include care. He capitalized these. So you carv care then something really caught because grief and panic, then fear.
Lust.
Seeking play and rage. These are all brain systems that we have. They're all necessary from an alien life. They're all necessary by rage. He means the anger that arises when our boundaries are being trans crashed.
If I were to infringe on your boundaries either physically or emotionally the healthy response for you is to mount an angry response. No, get
out. Stay away, that's healthy.
Healthy anger is in the moment, it protects your boundaries and then it's gone.
It's not necessary anymore.
However, if your boundaries were infringed as a child, but you could not express it, it doesn't disappear. It gets suppressed. It becomes almost like a volcano that's gurgling and bubbling inside you, but he said no expression. No, why did you suppress it? Because if you're being, well, are you being very public about this? So I'm sure you'll allow me to mention it, but you've sometime after you and
Talk to you, actually. Publicly acknowledged that you'd been sexually abused as a child. That now when that's happening too small, child, the last thing you can afford is to be angry because you forget rageful.
At the boundary Invasion, you're going to get hurt even more so suppressing that rage becomes a survival mechanism.
Nothing wrong with. It is the right thing to do. You don't do it. Your brain will do it for you automatically as a way of preserving, your life, or your relative safety, but the rage doesn't go away.
what happens in later on as an adult, something triggers you
and also to just explodes out of you and you have no control over it. Nice. No longer responds a healthy response to the present moment.
But it's a response to the past and just as my hurt and sense of Abandonment and and rage was triggered by my wife not picking me up at the airport so a person's rage can be triggered by something relatively minor but also Dan is lava flow just explodes out of you and the difference between healthy anger and by the way of suppressing, all the anger is also in healthy for you. We can talk about that but just as healthy anger
Expresses itself does its job and has gone raged such as on describing such as the way I used to experience it. And probably, as used experience it the more it explores, the bigger it gets,
That's what happens to me. I've worked with certain therapists who have said, you know, punch a pillow Express, The Rage. Let it just pass through you, like the wind, but that isn't in fact, what happens with me? And I know I'm not the only one it actually magnifies and intensifies and
extends this feeling
exactly because they did recruit some more brand circuits into its service. So that's the difference between healthy and growing them on and which is essential boundary defense.
And by the way, so much parenting advice in this culture tells parents to force kids, to suppress their anger, really unhealthy advice, there's healthy anger, then there's that rage that you and I have both experienced if you're going to punch a human being and there's a pillow to punch instead better to punch the pillow, you know where no question about that. But as a technique of dealing with it, no, that's not how you learn to process that rage because it needs to be processed.
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How do you approach the processing? What is a more effective prescription or one possible way? Well, if I would be working with you,
I would encourage you to fully experience the body experience of Rage what's happening in your body and you'll find that it's not just an idea in your head.
It's
something that dominates your visceral experience of yourself, your muscles, your breathing, your abdomen, your entire nervous system and this way is of just helping you experience it.
Experience it by raising the awareness of that somatic experience of being with it. I know that there's a wonderful spirit, Buddhist lineage spiritual teacher, meditation teacher called Tara, Brach who talks about rain recognize allow investigate and
nurture.
So you reckon that we had, this is happening to me right now. I'm gonna okay,
I'm gonna allow it not along it, in the sense of I'm gonna act it out on somebody else, but I'm going to be with the experience and then investigate. Okay? What is this video about?
And then nurture that little person that had to suppress all that rage, it's a nutshell view of it, but in other words, there's ways of working with it through the body.
That doesn't involve either suppressing it or acting it out, but in experiencing it. Yeah. Fall need to revisit Tara and range. She's been very helpful to me. I just want to give her credit where credit is due and maybe I mentioned this in our first conversation as well. The radical acceptance as a book. Yeah. As a title it turned to me off but a friend of mine who is a very skeptical Neuroscience PhD or has a PHD in neuroscience and she say who
Generally averse to anything that even rhymes with Wu read this book and recommended it to me. And I found a tremendously tremendously helpful on, it may be time for me to revisit it. And you know, she also tells this apocryphal story that is in some ways linked to this conversation that we're having. She tells us apocryphal story of a sage who says, there's only one question that really matters and that is what are you unwilling to feel? And
And I've also had therapist asked me, like, do you experience clean anger? And my instinctive answer is no, I don't, and I resist it because I view it as potentially destructive especially the way that it
can
feed on itself and get Amplified. And I'm not at risk of like, throwing a chair through a window or punching someone, because I've become very good at suppression, but it's not lost on me. That there is a cost to be exact 'add new. When you do that, I wrote about acceptance.
As well, that's why, it's in my mind. And I'm also somebody that doesn't do acceptance or Surrender very well. So, I resisted vitals, but if one is very helpful and very compassionate actually, and from my perspective, from the point of view, the therapy that I teach my students know, part of us, know, aspects of us is bad so that Rage of yours. It came along for a good reason and the suppression of the rage that came along for good reason, as well.
And so, the more we can investigate this and understand that the more we can make friends, but all aspects of ourselves, which I think is the key to Healing. By the way, Reichel acceptance, doesn't mean radical tolerance. It doesn't mean that you put up with everything. It just means that you're eight, accept that this is the way it is right now. Now, where do we go from here? It was not a question of. Okay, I don't know, except all the Injustice and oppression and unfairness that's in the world. No, it's not about that at all.
That's a really, really good clarification and it's at least as I recall the book I should revisit it. It's very much focused. Also, on self-acceptance, meaning acceptance of the parts of us that we have disowned including the emotions that were not willing to feel. Let me ask you about and this is all related. I suppose everything is related at the end of the day, but what happens when one seemingly non-negotiable need is pitted against another. So the example I want to ask you about specifically is attachment versus authenticity, right? So if I think about them,
Action. I had to my significant other this morning which was similar to your taxi experience. Yeah. On one hand, I wanted to be very direct and how I was feeling and then I hesitated in expressing that which would have come with a tone of anger almost certainly because I wanted her acceptance and support didn't want to hurt her. And so I felt this inner
Act of needs that I couldn't reconcile and maybe that's not the best example. But I would love for you to sort of help me and the listeners explore this a bit. So I can't be can't. Imagine I'm the only one who experiences this type of thing. I don't know but I wasn't there and they don't know what happened, but my guess is that you and I did this exercise once before that. You very I thought whether bravely put on YouTube, where we went through a certain experience of yours.
You haven't been upset the lesson from that exercise and very often or take my reaction at the airport and I imagine perhaps your reaction this morning. And I can't say this for sure because I wasn't there but very often. We don't react to What Happens reactors and interpretation of what happens your partner did or didn't say or do something and then you had a certain interpretation of that and then you acted that interpretation. So I imagine that may have happened. So then you in this dilemma
If I fully express how I feel, I'm going to maybe hurt her and hurt the relationship, or heard them and hurt the relationship. But if I don't, then I'm not being authentic. So what I do? I'm nothing. That's the Dilemma that you're posing here. It goes back to the very early in childhood because we have these two needs that I've identified. One of them is, for attachment, attachment mean, our need for connection and closeness to another.
Mission for the sake of being taken care of or for the sake of taking care of the other. So, when I talked about these brain circuits of doctor, panksepp, the care system is designed for you, and I to take care of the vulnerable are young or very old ones are sick ones. There's a system in our brain with its own brain chemicals and its own circuits that are designed to help us care for one another.
That's essential for no mammal. Would survive without that.
We also have a system for ready, cause grief and panic, and that's what we experience when we don't get that care. So, we're wired to attach for the sake of survival and no creature is more dependent. More vulnerable
More immature than a human infant.
Compared to any other animal. So our dependence is absolute. So need to attach is absolute but we have another need as creatures and in this human beings which is to be authentic. Now I don't need any kind of new age whoo-hoo concept by designing knowing what we feel and being able to how to act on what we feel. So as you know, we've evolved author and nature.
How long does any creature?
In nature survive if they don't know what their gut feelings are telling them suffer long, not very long, authenticity, which comes from the word Auto for self knowing ourselves and manifesting ourselves isn't also essential need. That's fine. But what happens if a child experiences emotions that? The environment says, uh, we won't accept you with that that can happen to abuse but
Also happen through well-meaning parents who read the parenting advice of a lot of experts. Including some not, I think you've had on your program, who will tell you that? When a kid is angry, there should be made to sit by themselves. Now, wait, which, who did by? Let's name some names here who are talking about Jordan Peterson says that in. This book, twelves was for then, an angry child should be made to sit by themselves. Until he says, they come back to normal. In other words, anger in a child is not
Normal and the message to the child, but he's not the only one and the message to the child is, you are not acceptable when you have that emotion. No. Now, the child is a dilemma. I can be authentic.
But then they're going to exclude me. It does going to threaten my attachment relationship or I can suppress my authenticity.
And then I'll have the attachment.
Now, what do you think? It's sacrificed. 100% of the time
authenticity.
The authenticity has sacrificed and them spend the rest of our lives trying to figure out who the heck we are.
That's repression of authenticity has severe mental and physical health. Implications from autoimmune disease, to malignancy to depression. Take, for example, something like called depression, what does it mean to depress something? Literally, what are you doing to push it down? Depression is not this inherited brain disease. It's a result of having to push oneself down, push down one's emotions as a child.
To play devil's advocate here a be there can be and there are pure to be genetic markers that predispose someone again, it's not predetermination but they're there is it would seem a genetic component. It's not purely in the absence of childhood events something that does not occur. Right. Would you say? That is fair. I'm going to give you an argument on that one. I mean having written this book. I've just reviewed the literature. Nobody's ever discovered the gene for any mental health condition,
Notice you ever discovered any group of genes, that cause any mental health condition. Nobody has discovered, any group of genes that if you have them, you're going to get this disease. Nobody's discovered any group of genes, that, if you don't have them, you can't get this condition. What people have discovered is, there's a large group of genes at the, more than me have, the, more likely you might have any number of mental health conditions from ADHD to depression, and psychosis to whatever, but none of them code for the
Condition. So something is being inherited, yes. But what is being inherited? And you take animals or human beings with those same set of genes and you give them different environments, they'll turn out to be very different
creatures.
Some of them will be extremely functional if they were treated very well. So what is being inherited then? Now this is contrary to the medical mantra' I'm telling you the science. Okay. What is being inherited or not? This
Jesus, what is being inherited? Is sensitivity, the more sensitive you are and unite talked about sensitive the first time you met, but let's just illustrate it. If I tap myself on the shoulder right now. I know if I did this exercise last time, I don't feel any pain at all. Do I. But what if I, what if my shoulder was Bare? And there was a burn their. So my nerve endings were close to the surface which means I was thin skinned and night touch my stuff with the same Force.
No, what do I feel severe pain.
So sensitivity from the Latin word sincere just needs to feel the more sensitive. You are genetically, the more you feel, the more you feel when things go wrong, the more pain, you have, the more pain you have, the more you have to get defenses around, that pain and all mental health conditions, reflect some defense against Spain. In fact, sword Soldier, many physical conditions. So what I'm saying is, yes, there is some genetic component here, but that's not a disease, that's be inherited.
It's sensitivity and therefore, vulnerability. That's being a narrative from there on. It depends purely on the environment.
Sure, and I think we're largely on the same page. The point I just wanted to make is that there are predispositions. It's not a binary transmission of a disease, although those may exist with things like pompe disease. And so on, if you have two recessive carriers, but let me come back to attachment versus authenticity for one second. Because in the case of this child, who's expressing say anger. And if there are people who would take the stance of
The prescriptive move is to put that child in the corner until they come back to their senses, in that case, the child is going to choose attachment over authenticity and you condition the child to behave that way. How would you handle that situation? Because I suppose, if I wanted to sort of stand in for some people listening and for myself, frankly, if you don't help a child to learn to regulate themselves in some fashion, you just end up with someone who can't function in society, or if they're encouraged to kind of
of indulges a strong word, but Embrace every impulse that they have with a strong emotion, they'll probably in some way gets exiled by their students and peers also. So, how do you walk that tightrope? How do you suggest handling that type of circumstance? So I agree with you, the intent of good parenting or good. Child rearing is to help the development of self-regulation.
Absolutely. The question is how to get
there
right now? It's not a question of everybody should behave exactly how they want to and hell with everybody else? It can't be that that's permissiveness. That's not healthy parenting either. But it also depends what age were talking about. Like for example, a two-year-old they want a cookie before dinner. Now if you're doing your job as a parent, you're going to frustrate them.
But you're going to say no cookie before
dinner. Now, what do we
do? As adults as mature adults, when we get frustrated,
You know, if we're lucky, we know how to handle of frustration, but if you like me, sometimes you'll start throwing a bit of a tantrum. So that's what a two-year-old will. They'll tow attention, nothing wrong with tutorial throwing a tantrum, that's just what their brain is programmed to do when they're frustrated. So you say, oh, you're really angry, aren't you?
You really want that cookie? Yeah, and you really mad at Daddy because he won't give you the cookie. Yeah, that allows the child to move through the emotions and to know that emotions can come and go house every Collision happens. Is dr. Dan Siegel points out, is that the immature circuits of the child's brain, use the mature circuits of the adults. Brain of the nurturing adults brain to up regulate it.
So the way you help a child develop self regulation is by being regulated yourself.
So, if you stay calm, you say, You're really angry or into that'll help the child develops of Regulation because he's downloading your circuits. But if you responded punishment or hostility and giving the message that huge is not acceptable, you're just frustrating and even more you might get compliant Behavior.
But you're going to get somebody who's rages being suppressed. We've already talked about that and you're gonna get somebody who's going to get depressed because they're pushing themselves down a child who's understood and held and loved. They'll move through these emotions very quickly, very quickly, and that's how you learn self-regulation, is that these emotions can arise and they'll go and we don't have to be attached to them, and we don't have to act them out, you know. So self-regulation.
Begins by The Adult World being regulated and not reactive. That makes sense. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Let's come back to the myth, the normal. And if you look back at your many books, and maybe I'm just unique in this situation, but I don't think I am. I'll explain what I mean. But I look back at each of my books. There are chapters or elements or messages that I wish I'd met be emphasized, more or that I'm sad.
Get skipped over or not. Given enough attention in the new book. Are there any chapters or concepts anything at all? That you really hope people do not miss? I know that's perhaps a strange way to phrase it but I'll leave it there as a starting point. No, it's good. Thank you. It's almost like I felt I could just print the title. The title page, the myth of normal trauma illness and healing in a toxic
Culture and just have people write their own books, just have a bunch of empty pages. So I
think
the message is reinforced through the whole book. What we think is normal in our society from the point of view of human needs. And human evolution is absolutely abnormal and therefore what we think of abnormalities in terms of illnesses and dysfunctions and diseases. And so on, these are normal responses to have normal circumstances
And the biggest logs you never really talked about this is a society that from the very beginning from In Utero
onwards
puts trust stresses on human beings that they lose contact with themselves. And the essence of trauma is loss of contact with yourself, lots of connection to yourself, and that's reinforced through parenting practices.
The parenting advice people guide you. And I already talked about that is reinforced in the school system, but it's all about competition and evaluation rather than relaxation and learning. We are judged all the time by our external is like hobby. Look,
What? We achieve are smart, we are how fast we are. We're not accepted for who we are with our flaws and our
vulnerabilities.
Society caters to those false needs.
So that
for god sakes people on botoxing themselves because they've learned that how they are is just not acceptable. People are on Facebook presenting, a false image of
themselves because
they believe that how they are and who they are is not good enough. We're sold all these products and are manipulated into all these activities that are all attempts to fulfill some deep hunger in ourselves.
That is missing because we've lost our true selves. We are manipulated into buying products and eating foods that are actually toxic Lee, addictively unhealthy.
And this happens with the full awareness event, none of the awareness, the the employment of modern science as to how to get people hooked on cell phones or junk Foods, our politics reflect very traumatized people, reaching the top and acting policies, that then create more trauma for large numbers of people.
Another is this is a society that for all its wealth scientific Ingenuity, incredible progress in science and medicine as fundamentally. The disconnected from the essence of what it means to be human beings and least suffer. There's an article and then in the New Yorker about the alarming rise in childhood suicide, the mysterious rise in child. There's nothing mysterious about it.
Kids are stressed because of the conditions of this culture. All the lonely people as the Beatles sang. You know, all the lonely people. The number people only has doubled in the last 30 years, Britain has appointed a minister of loneliness, loneliness skills,
It's as dangerous as smoking 15 cigarettes a day in terms of causing illness or potentiating illness and death. There's this so many ways in which this culture is abnormal and it's causing people to be not. Well, and so that message that's the essential one that I hope people won't miss, but I kind of doubt that they will. If they if they read the book and the big message is Tim is we don't have to be that way.
It's not our true nature.
Reading sold a bill of goods about human nature has human Acres. Not like that and precisely the reason there's so much dysfunction is because we've got disconnected from a to Nature. We don't have to be, we can find our way back, we can embrace it and will be a lot healthier both as a group and as individuals.
So what you're saying reminds me of a quote, no doubt you've heard it, many maybe even used it many times. This is from krishnamurti to no, measure of Health to be well, adjusted to a profoundly sick Society. Yeah, and my next question, relates to what to do because I have noticed for myself, for instance, if I'm off in the mountains and the rivers, or The Jungle, by myself for period of time,
I come back,
I feel better tune. I feel much more at ease, they're all these positive effects but it at least in that form is opting out of society. Now, maybe that's okay but as I contemplate, part of my reason for asking about parenting and anger management or recognition and so on is because I'm contemplating starting a family soon and that's at least in the plans and disappear into the jungle for months.
A time may not be may or may not be compatible with that, at least in the early stages. So, recognizing the problem, what are some of the things that people can do or what are questions? They should be asking, how would you suggest they start looking at treatments or Solutions? First of all, I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the connection with nature. I do talk about Roman called Clara Hughes. Now, Clara Hughes was the first person to win medals at both the summer and winter Olympics.
A Canadian and wonderful person and after she retired from support, she became a public speaker and we're just stressing herself fulfilling all these demands and she started to start walking. So every year for six months of the year, she just goes walks, she walks. She's walked from, I think Northern Canada to Mexico and she reconnects herself, you know, wow, obviously, nobody can do that all the time. Claire doesn't have children, so she can afford to, to do that.
But that doesn't mean that the connection with nature needs to be dismissed. So I would say for you, if that's a powerful connection and a way for you to reconnect with yourself for Garcia's, keep doing it, you might not do it for as long, and there's intensively as you might before you had children. But keep it up because it's an essential part of who you are. But beyond that, what keeps us disconnected from ourselves? Are the imprints of trauma? And I suggest ways of working that through. That's not the only way. I'm certainly no.
No, you need, can offering Pathways to wholeness as I call it, that part of the book, but people need to realize to what extent their tensions and their unhappiness, and the dysfunctions things that they don't like about themselves.
They all came along for a reason.
It's some point data function to play, know they no longer helpful, we can work them through. You got to get help either through reading the right books and or find the right therapist and or engaging in a right kind of spiritual practice or martial arts or something. But there's always the way to work it through. I can't emphasize enough the importance of community of connection
We're wired to connect.
And in a society that teaches us that our Nature's to be aggressive, and competitive and individualistic, and even suspicious of others that goes against our nature. So, we have to work our way through those false beliefs, and come back to who we really are, which are connected beings. Really here to be both individuals to both to be authentic and to be attached at the same time so that they shouldn't be this tragic 10.
And between attachment and authenticity, we can be both aesthetic and be connected.
That's what we have to strive for both of the individuals. And I think also the culture when you think about
wholeness
and contending with these traumatic imprints, as you mentioned, some say, parenting approaches that you disagree with, are there any approaches or recommendations that you think do more harm than good with respect to contending with trauma, or moving towards wholeness? Yeah, any parenting back.
So educational practice that focuses on Behavior rather than the child's underlying emotional Dynamics is going to be harmful because what we want out of child rearing is that the end of it, there should be an autonomous human being respectful of themselves and of others who can be authentic and connected at the same time. That's our goal. I don't think anybody would disagree that that's our goal for human beings. Now, that's a natural development.
Elemental process as long as we provide the right conditions for it but nothing in nature. Develops in the wrong context. So, you know, I could have an acorn in my hand, and the nature of that Acorn is to become an oak tree, but not if I leave it on my desk, it needs, you know, water and soil and sunlight and so on a lot of parenting that educational practices focused, not on the long-term goal on development. But on fixing the kids behaviors in the short term
So we talked about
kids are acting out what do you do when a kid acts out? But look at this phase acting out? What does it mean to ask something out? When I say a kid is acting out you will probably think of a kid who's being oppositional or or rude or disobedient or aggressive.
But that's not what the phrase means acting up means to portray in behavior that which we haven't got the worst to say in language. So, in a game of Charades, we're not allowed to speak. What you have to do, you have to act it out?
If you land in the country where nobody spoke your language and yet to portray hunger, you have to
act it out.
Kids are acting out their emotional
needs. The
question is, are we going to respond to the child? We're going to try and suppress the behavior. So much of us thought as parenting advice is designed to manipulate or shape or suppress kids behaviors rather than understanding the child. And by the way, this is also true of adults as well, you know, is this, we look at human beings and we don't see what's really driving them. We just either approve or disapprove of how they're behaving, but
Don't make much of an effort, the legal system specializes in or understanding why people behave the way they behave.
Just in suppressing, it which is why in Canada where indigenous people make up 5% of the population, they make up 30% of the jail population and Indigenous women make up, 50% of the female Geo population. In this country, it's an absolute Scandal. Same in the US.
the more oppressed you are, the more marginalized, you are, the more you've been traumatized by history,
And you know which group stores are in the United States? Do more, you going to likely going to happen in jail because the legal system, doesn't understand trauma. It doesn't understand human development and it
Confuses punishment, betwee habilitation. In terms of supporting Healthy Growth of human beings that are any level we need understanding of what's driving this behavior. And it's not a question of allowing bad behavior or permitting, it or encouraging, it raised the question of
What are we going to do about the phenomena of?
Aggression or drug
use or
in the case of children, rudeness or Disobedience, or anything else. What are we going to do about it? I'm going to try and just suppress the behavior.
Then you end up where we are with millions of people in jail and lots of kids, with learning difficulties and behavior problems. And millions of kids being medicated or we're going to try and understand what's happening was driving it. What are the social cultural dynamics? That are driving so much dysfunction. And it's not that hard to perceive. We have the science. We have the research, we just not applying it. Let me hop in. There are a few things I want to mention.
It's
come to mind as you're speaking and then I'll end it with a question. The first is on the acting out Point how I've heard stories from a number of friends and I don't have kids. So anyone out there don't look to me for parenting advice but with respect to baby sign teaching children sign language before they actually have the physiological capability of speaking that you reduce, the amount of acting out, sort of crying for attention etcetera, when you enable them even with a handful, literally of
Basic sign language symbols, right? Hungry, thirsty, potty or whatever might be. So that makes sense to me. The second is and I like the way that you deconstruct that phrase, the second as it relates to incarceration, there's a documentary. I saw a long time ago called the work it's called the work came out in 2017 at the very least, everybody should watch the trailer will link to it in the show notes and it relates to effectively trauma work.
In the prison system, I say that as kind of in a monolithic sense which might not be perfectly accurate, but within a prison in the United States, and it's absolutely mesmerizing and brutal to watch. And it highlights how difficult it is. In the sense that, you know, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure intervening early, but let's look at the adult case. So, coming back to this trauma imprint, if you were to take, say a thousand people,
Oh, from the population kind of selected at random and they all as adults, pursued, fixing their trauma, whatever they think of, as that meaning, are there any approaches or techniques or pass that you think are risky damaging ill-advised? Is there anything that you'd like to highlight in that department specifically in prisons in the u.s. is the work that you mentioned? Sounds wonderful. I know a couple of other approaches, there's a film made about my work called the wisdom of
Trauma that actually people can watch online and there's a scene in it. They're not involved with deserve a woman, could frizzy Horseman. She's a wonderful. You might want to talk to her sometime. She works with these high level offenders, and she's got these large number of people and his prison yard standing in a circle, all men. And she says, if you were hit regularly as a child, take a step forward, everybody takes to step in
If your parents yelled at you a lot, take a step in.
If you abuse, take a step in.
If you've witnessed violence in your family of origin, take a step in and the circle, just keep getting smaller and smaller and smaller as people keep stepping, in, to the circle. And so she does. Wonderful, trauma, work, and it would prisoners. And the Transformations are incredible.
That she Witnesses in helps to facilitate. I know somebody else who works with something called the prison Enneagram project. You probably heard of the Enneagram. I don't I've never studied it. I have it's come up with a number of CEOs. Yeah Toby of Shopify and others who use the Enneagram be helpful. If you wanted to, just give a brief overview or explain, it's probably what we introduced. So I've never studied all that much. I don't have the
Patients were admitted with her but you know, but it's a, it's a personality typing system that allows you to look at potential interactions of different people with different typing and you can look at the pros and cons of those interactions and it's a lot more to it. But those are some of the basic I think this is what I write. And then and also each Enneagram type has got its potential values, but also its hazards. So, I know somebody who's taken this work into prisons and they do any of them work and I witnessed it.
And these are, these guys are killers. They've killed it's hard to say this and it's going to draw. Some may be raised eyebrows or skepticism from some of your listeners. These guys are the loveliest people in the world and they're not pretending. They were sensitive kids, deeply traumatized. Nobody ever paid attention to done everybody hurt them. Very often, of course, the minority
status.
Somebody hears then allows them to work with. I quote one of them in the book, actually.
And then he says, if I ever get out of here, all I ever want to do is help people love themselves because when I committed that crime, I was totally disconnected from myself. I didn't know who I
was,
I couldn't respect myself, he says, so I couldn't respect no one else either and as I've learned to respect myself, I know respect all human beings. I witnessed him saying this, this is in San Quentin actually, so the potential of Rehabilitation and and bring people back to their human,
Dolls is enormous given the right circumstances but we know how punitive and how traumatizing the prison experiences for a lot of people because we equate punishment, Rehabilitation is not the same thing. So I honestly I'm not saying that we should allow murder without we should encourage crime what I'm saying is
if we apply the light of understanding to what drives people,
And we actually interested in rehabilitating them so that the correctional system will becomes a system that corrects people rather than just punishes them. We could do so much with what we already know and you know what it wouldn't cost more it would cost less but people are status when I mention I actually did some podcast interviews behind the line. Inside a maximum-security prison in California. At one point level for Maximum Security Prison current Valley.
Prison. So people can find that 323 if they're interested in kind of getting a peek behind the lines and I would agree with you, wait surprised by anything. I was surprised by a lot because that is certainly not my native environment. I mean, on one hand, you had violent events on a constant basis, right? So there were real threats within the prison that you do really.
Of riot gear and so on had to be used. So you had tremendous potential for violence and then you also had tremendous potential with the right help with the right support and resources. I was there volunteering with a with a group teaching entrepreneurial skills because without qualifications or transferable skills to outside civilian life, right? Then the recidivism rate of course, is going to be very high also with
Felony or felonies on your record, it complicates the entire situation. So it's a very, very problematic gnarly puzzle to solve taking people from inside the system to then outside the system and reintroducing them. So that was the context within which I was there but you're also able to have conversations with people who had done a tremendous job with support of rehabilitating themselves and really using interest.
Section and cultivated self-awareness to yeah. Turn their lives around even within the confines of a Maximum Security. Prison in some cases people who were not eligible for parole, right? People who were still turning their lives around. Yeah, despite the fact that most likely they would be restricted to Life Behind Bars until he died. Yeah. So everything about it was deeply impactful and actually participated in a
An exercise. That's very similar to the one you described, where people are stepping forward or stepping backward, depending on the things they've experienced and when you start layering all of the abuses and experiences, these people have suffered through, I don't want to say it's inevitable, you know, coming back to the maybe the genetic comparison. I think it's not inevitable that these people end up in jail, but it sets the conditions such that it is much more likely. Especially if
They're highly sensitive as you mentioned and it's stuck with me, it was very emotional for me to witness honestly because it also I grew up on Long Island and family kind of lower middle class with friends who came from some very tough households in a lot of alcoholism, lot of abuse, a lot of drugs and some of my friends have not made it, you know, some have died of opiate overdoses and drunk, driving, accidents, Etc, and other issues and summer.
Ours at this point also. And so it's also striking to me how with one or two different decisions. The trajectory of my life could have very easily gone in a direction that would have made it more likely that I would have ended up someplace very, very different. Let me ask you. If you could no longer, right, you can no longer. I'll stick with writing, no more writing, no more public speaking, but you are allowed to
To focus on clinical practice and this comes to mind because of what this inmate you mentioned, said about spending the rest of his life doing something. Yeah. What type of clinical practice would you focus on? I hope this rule against me. Speaking doesn't isn't enacted very soon because I got this multi-country trip lined up that really look forward to, but don't tell anybody, okay? But yeah, but I'm not supposed to that's, that's accepted. Yeah, that's acceptable.
Okay. But, you know, it'd be much the same as I'm doing now, except more one-to-one. It would be that you come to me with an issue and I would help you to see that there's nothing wrong with you, with you, with who you are. The stuff happened in your life at a time. When you couldn't help it and you made a kind of meaning out of that, like, I made the meaning that I couldn't be helped. I couldn't be healed.
Or I made the meaning that I'm being abandoned and you made a certain meaning out of that and you've been living your life other than meaning that you created at a time and you had no choice in the matter. And if you can get to be friends with all those aspects of you that at that time, helped you survive. But now are creating suffering for you and the people in your life, and if you can work your way back to getting to know yourself and accepting yourself.
You'll be just fine. Whether your trauma shows up in the front of multiple sclerosis or rheumatoid, arthritis
or
malignancy. And by the way, there's a lot of literature linking, all these conditions to trauma. So, I'm not just making this up or whether it shows up as Rage or body shows up as depression or as ADHD, or is anything else.
Whether it shows up in difficulty with Intimacy, in problems, forming relationships, no matter how your problems manifest, there's a reason why. They're those reasons can be understood. They all quit work through and you can find your way back to yourself. So that's would be my clinical practice almost. No matter what people presented with I say, almost no matter what, because I'd only categorical about it. You're right. There are some diseases, there are genetic.
Run runs in my family, it's called muscular dystrophy. If you have the gene, you can have the disease, my mother had had, my aunt, had it and they died with it. But that's very rare, very rare. For the most part, people were dealing with the impacts of life experience in a culture that undermines our connection to ourselves and to other people. And that's what we have to realize and correct. Oh, God were, I know we could go and go and go and go. I mean I feel like that's a powerful.
Place to start to maybe come to a close but I want to also open the floor to anything else that you might want to.
Mention any thing you might want to add or if apart from closing comments you might have any request of my audience or suggestions to the audience. Certainly the new book is the myth of normal. I recommend people check it out. I've seen you through documentaries but also you know, in our interactions through in action, so to speak and I really respect you as a clinician and a practitioner right now just a theoretician.
And so, I wanted
to say that publicly, I'm aware of how much you have rolled up your sleeves and worked with very difficult cases of addiction and Trauma in some of the sort of highest density areas in. North America certainly with respect to all of these kind of intersecting health challenges. So I want to say that. But are there any other
Any other comments you would like to add before we
bring this to a close.
Okay, personally, the running is book has been the biggest challenge of my life that certain times. I didn't know if I would finish it would finish me first because and and literally I went to panic at certain times. I even became so desperate and that I called the therapist and I had a therapy session once a week for several months in the middle of writing the book, which is a good thing. You know, at least I was smart enough to reach out for help.
It was hard because I took on such a big subject, which is the whole of this culture and how did that turn tends to us as individuals and as groups. But what kept me going, was this voice inside me. That says, you know,
Honestly, you need to do this.
But you called to do this, and you wouldn't be being true to yourself. If you didn't fulfill the calling that voice in one version, another it doesn't have to do with book writing or any other project like that. But that voice of
Who we are and what we can be in this world that's inside all of us.
And the such cacophony the Such Noise generated by this culture. I mean, the radio, the TV, the internet is yelling at you 24/7.
And we're being pulled away from ourselves in so many ways.
But the Bible talks about the small still voice that's inside of us. And the noise around those generated by this culture, makes that voice almost impossible to hear, but I'm sure you've had the experience of self, and a lot of people have it's in there and if you can just listen to it, that was my biggest takeaway from writing this book as, and I'm so glad I did it. And in the end, I'm just so happy with
What I've been able to press it down on paper but by the way with the brilliant help of my son, Daniel I couldn't have done this on my own and fucking pitch forward a bit. The next book dialogue or writing is called hello again, a fresh start for adults children and their parents maybe in a few years. When that's done, that's a workshop that we do and maybe in a few years I can come back and talk to you again when Apple comes out. But anyway, let's do it. The long and short of it is that the lesson that I derived is that it's not easy to listen to that voice but it's
A essential and be so rewarding, and that voice is inside. All of us.
So I have to follow up because this is touching a nerve for me right now because I've been sort of sitting in the silence for about a year and a half. Now I have not committed to any large projects. Do you have any advice for the tuning to or sensitizing
to
picking out that small still voice? I would love to maybe have a
more
Acute ability to
observe that not that I'm totally deaf. Dumb and blind. But do you have any recommendations I do? But are you willing for a bit of an experiment right now? Oh man. Here we go again about. Okay, I may end up being the piñata, but I'll go with it. Yes, I'm open to it. It just an experiment and it may or may not work and it's really okay if it doesn't. So there's no I'm not going to feel like a failure, if it doesn't work. And
You won't be getting a failing grade if nothing comes up. It's just an experiment, right? Let's try it. So you say you've been kind of observing some degree of silence and not committing to long-term projects, very wise because something inside you needs to work yourself out and you're giving it space.
So, I'm just going to ask you to this the silent for a moment within yourself.
Then I'm gonna ask you a question. I'm going to snap my fingers, ask a question and I snap my fingers, just say the first thing that comes to your mind. If anything does. And if nothing does, that's really okay. But whatever you do, don't try and think about it. Okay. So don't try and figure out the right answer. There's no right answer. Okay. So but you can see if anything comes up or not. So I might have two questions. Okay, so the just silence for a moment, okay?
You're paying attention to what's happening inside. You your chest, your belly, your head, you know, you just being present with yourself and when I asked you, what's calling you animals animal
communication, okay?
It's the first thing that comes up. Okay. Well I don't know what that means but I'm sure you do. Yeah, okay. Great. By the way animals, have a lot to tell us, don't they? It's not true that I don't know what, you know, I know people that work with horses, you know. I don't know exactly what you mean but I know there's a lot there. Okay. So if that comes up for you then the second question would be what's stopping you you know. I think what's stopping me?
I can pursue it. I am actually going to be pursuing that in the next month especially because I got a sort of a very promising lead involving some indigenous animal
trackers. Okay?
So that's a whole separate story but
I am unsure of how to because I'm sort of on the periphery of this interest, right? And the interest I think is very much
An attraction to non verbal forms of communication so that could be humans. But I just find the kind of pure unadulterated naturally selected manifestation of that is seen. So clearly in animals and what about an appeal, to there's something about that appeals to you. But what's the appeal there for you? In a word in a word? Give me a second laughter. Yeah.
Do a little search function for a word. You know, comes up for me Purity. I think for me it would be very close. I was going to say, - its cheating it's not a word but other
Means of knowing okay then knowing okay other means of knowing forget the other means is knowing and you don't want that knowing happening through the intellect.
Yeah, I don't want it going through a bunch of filters and abstractions and Concepts. I think it just gets so clumsy. Yeah, so look damn, it sounds to me like your
Got a beautiful calling and we just pure knowing and you even have a pathway that you've envisioned which is through animal communication. I think you on your way. I don't think there's a big mystery here. Well, you know, I'm gonna borrow that confidence. If I may, I'll kind of fake it until I make it here with that. I'm excited. Thank you for doing the exercise, which, you know, hopefully people. Maybe they had a chance to try themselves. I'm excited about. I think there's part of me that is trying
Force it into this may be false construct of a job if that makes any sense and just bear with me as I try to walk through this. Like right now I do the podcast. I love doing the podcast. It's basically their interviews but I'm also very self-indulgent with turning them into my own therapy sessions. So thanks for playing along and there's part of me that really enjoys a commitment to all consuming projects because I find it so much easier.
ER, to say no to the noise and to The Temptations, and the shiny objects, when I have a clear, Focus that consumes much of my days or all of my days and maybe it's just premature, but I've been trying to figure out all right. Well, how does this interest actually translate to something that I can spend that amount of time on? And the answer is not forthcoming. So I think for that reason, I've hesitated in taking the plunge. Well, if I may, if I may say
You're trying to bargain with you authenticity here and it seems to me a ton of justify. It somehow, you know, like, for me to be authentic and pursued his calling, I have to somehow translated into some monitor eyes door professionally, acceptable, or respectable and ever. I don't imagine that financially you're constrained to do that. But, uh, yeah, it's not the finances. It's more like, how do I make it something? I don't want it to be a disrespected.
Hobby. If that makes sense like it's something I feel very drawn to respect so I'm sorry to interrupt. But are you then worried? What other people are? You worried? What other people think about it? No. No I'm not. I'm not actually I'm worried that I won't have enough to chew on for it to sustain me for a period of time. I just won't have I won't be able to sink my teeth into it. Enough to spend, what I would view as a critical mass of time to reach some
Of expertise but know that that's all internal. It doesn't have anything to do with what other people think. Okay, good. So you want to be able to respect it enough with inside yourself. But look, what's the worst case scenario here. See sounds to me when I hear you speak about it. Then you said a few words, you said animal communication, you said knowing pure annoying, I would call it to me. That's very inspiring that you'd be caught by that it really is from the outside just to tell you what higher respond to it. That's
Oh, boy, this guy's really got something. Here, is what I'm thinking. And what's the worst-case scenario is that you take the next step with this indigenous?
Possibility that you mentioned and you'll see, won't you, you know? Yeah, right. Do you have to figure it out all in advance? Or can you just take the next step and Trust the process? Yeah, the answer is, I can can trust the process, you know, a way it makes me think of, I can't remember who said it but you know, they're like somebody described writing a novel as driving across the country in the dark only headlights to guide you. Like you can get there, you can make it from one side to the other big only.
so, 200 feet in front of you at a given point in time so I think I probably just need to sort of take
Take that and run with it. So thank you. Thank you. I will I'm going to be I already have a couple of things on the calendar in the next two months that I'm really excited about. So right, I think I just need to stop dipping my toe in the water. And really I would say when I don't think is that the mind that we develop is kids in response to Toronto doesn't trust their authenticity very much for a good reason because authenticity we got us into trouble. So
Was suggested quite possibly some of this self-questioning and hesitation and they and they died around. It is still a bit of a an echo where you are programmed to question your authenticity because what you're talking about? Sounds very authentic to me. Yeah, could be. That wouldn't surprise me. Yeah. I mean I think that's a
As good. A theory as any for me to to recognize this is valid at this point. So thanks for the thanks for the encouragement, I appreciate it. I just reflecting what I'm saying, that's all. Well, thank you for the reflection and we're still learning how that goes for you one way or the other actually. Yeah, yeah, me too me too. Well Governor, thank you so much for the time. It's nice to see you again, your grand. It has been, it doesn't feel that long ago that we set face-to-face in Austin, but it's been quite a while.
Remarkably cell and you have been busy. I'm very excited about the new book and for people who would like to check it out and I encourage they check it out. The new book is the myth of normal trauma illness and healing in a toxic culture, you can find more information on the book at dr. Gabor maté.com. That's Dr. Dr. Gabor maté.com, and you can find Copper on Twitter at Dr. Dr. Gabor mate. And then on Instagram Gabor maté MD,
And we've covered a lot of ground and I really appreciate you being such an open book and also maybe helping me to turn a few pages in the process. So much appreciated - or thank you for making the time. Thank you very much for pleasure. Take care.
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