Every step I take I move my
truth every time they tell me stop by you. Let me comment hate that makes my together up my energy and boom. I hear them talking saying the way that I move is so reckless that is a part of my mind. I've been blessed with giving my blood. So I am relaxed.
well
Andrew hubermann I cannot believe you're on the podcast. I'm super happy to be here and I like that we're podcasting late in the evening because it's a different vibe. Yeah, you know, I think early in the day just the brain is different than later in the day and we've had quite a full day. So super happy to be here. We didn't have time to do a podcast earlier. We were too busy. Yeah, we were we were grappling with the laws of physics. Yeah. So, how was your day? How is the you know?
Like to share my life with people who I admire or look up to or I'm inspired by and you're all those three. So it meant a lot for me to be able to share today with you. Would you think? Well, first of all right back at you I'm incredibly inspired by you there are many a day when I'm back home and I'm like, I'm not going to run today and then I look at your Instagram feed. I'm like I'd better do it very do it. You've gotten me a bunch of
times that way today was spectacular. I'm still digesting the full magnitude of it, you know yesterday gave this talk at University of Oregon to some students and thanks for coming out and you and Rihanna for coming out. I meant a lot to look into the front row and friendly faces. Yeah, I love and respect so and then got a good night's sleep. Fortunately. Mmm. Got some good long sleep and then this morning we had to tell me the proper pronunciation Mount Pisgah.
Mount Pisgah and there was the option to hike it with either a 72 pound Ruck backpack, which is how I normally Ruck once a week, but not with the 72 pound weight normally for me. It's about 35 or a 72 pound rucksack that goes over the shoulders are more like beanbag rucksack. Yeah, or 72 pound Rock and that 70-pound rock is low mini Boulder.
You know, yeah, but not many Boulder. I mean this thing's about how big is this about the size of a this Bears head? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, it's nice. Yeah about two foot long probably. Yeah, so I picked the Rock and I knew as a mile and a half up and it was super hard work. Yeah. I'll I'll go on record saying that's the hardest quote-unquote cardio workout I've ever done. My heart rate was up near Max the entire time. Well, I
Is I was impressed. So you used did this goal you set this goal for yourself never to set the rock down notes that the rock down and I was gonna make it harder and that, you know, there's only been one other guy kept folks who didn't set it down. He rushed on his legs a couple times but like you he didn't set it down, but that's been you know, I've had I don't know 40 guests now all like tough people or endurance athletes or Fighters or whatever and it's only been you two who didn't set it down.
So that's I mean that's impressive you picked the hardest thing of the three and then carried it all the way up. Well, I'm here in Oregon with Cameron Haynes and crew. So I'm going to pick the hardest thing, right? How could I not? Yeah, they the idea was to not set it down. I did stop rested on my knee but it was and I just thought don't set it down. Don't sit down because I think starting up again as harder. If you do that, it would be for me and then there was one point at the end.
This is that lesson always you know, we were talking about we're home stretch. Yeah, I took a pause home stretch, right? Okay, let's go and then I slipped. Yep. It's right when you think you're there, you know, and I did catch it my arm straight underneath it stood up and kept going and I'll tell you something that thing on the Rock felt really good on the monument on the mon you guys getting it off your shoulder and Kesey's the monument to Ken Kesey son. Yeah and The Monuments beautiful. I know we got some footage of that. Yeah I've seen
In you hop up on that thing, which by the way folks in the videos were cam hops up on that Monument. He makes it look so easy. It's it takes some skill and some and some serious confidence to do that. So you have felt amazing again the hardest cardio workout I've ever done and you know, the last time I was here in this gym / Studio, we did a circuit workout, right and I was sore for like two weeks that
So there's something distinctly different and harder about the work that doesn't stop hmm, like incessant work right now because I do, you know legs on Monday, you know shoulders on Wednesday, you know, you know Saturday arms, you know, it did in the gym and you got you know, 23 minutes sometimes five minutes rest between sets. You can water listen to music completely different game, even if you're grinding out, you know for straps at the end and yeah suck.
and for air but then the rest comes but when the when the rest does not come it's a completely different test of your inner resource, and I was praying I was
Trying to distract myself today that many multiple times. I thought I had to pull on all the resources. Yeah. Hey guys looking to take your Wellness to the next level blokes can help you. They are Modern Health optimization service for men that is devoted to your physical sexual and mental health from the convenience of your home blokes helps you test your hormones consult with a board-certified clinician about your results and receive a personalized plan and treatment specifically for you blokes mission is to optimize men.
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Vo / cam I don't know if I have the right formula, but what I've you know in regard to work out I'm training for a bow hunting. I mean sounds weird to some people like you train to bow hunt. But yeah, so in a bow hunting it's in the mountains in particular. It's a test of endurance many times and it's not just to endure is to endure and be at your best to deliver a perfect Arrow. So it's it's not like you just have to stumble your way.
Through and just make it to the end because many times after you've pushed and pushed and pushed and you get that opportunity. Then you have to be at your best most accurate to make the best decision on when to shoot and then the most precise shot to offer that animal merciful kill. So my training is what I found prepares me for that moment, and I need to be able to just perform over long periods of time and then still capitalized. So that's kind of what I've designed my training for.
And I don't know. I don't know if if it makes sense or I don't know. I just know it works for me. You know, right? I don't know as far as body human body and training and mental and all that if it's you know, all the the formula checks out, but for me, that's what works. Yeah. Well clearly it does work. I mean Kim is being humble. But you know, I've been informed by multiple, you know Season elk Hunters that even a very seasoned elk Hunter might be
Lucky to get 100 hunted elk, you know about 10% of the outings. Mmm. That's not a very high numbers and Come Away with 1 mole per season would be even even that would be an outrageously High number in your you far exceed that and so I can understand why you know, you have so many fans and people were coming up to us on the trail and time to cam. You're a legend like, you know, and you are I mean and it's earned, you know, I think you should take that in because it's earned it.
You can't you know, you could you could be a billionaire multi times over and you can't buy a skill. Mmm. You can't buy the ability to get out until the Wilderness and that far and you left out a key part after you get that perfect shot or perfect for that moment shot. Then you got to carry the thing back, right? So it's I mean it's even a lot of work breaking the animal down because that in itself is I want to share it with you so bad just
Because I feel like I love sharing this experience with with new hunters or people who will if anybody really but to appreciate it. You have to know what that's like to be bent over and animal skinning it quartering at just how your back feels bent over four hours and it's like that's still all part of the process but to your point. Yeah, I mean, it's not over once the arrow is delivered in the animals dead. Then there's probably the most important part of the work and that's getting the me.
Out before it spoils get it out of the weather get it cooled and get it taken care of and then my another I mean, I love the whole process. Obviously I've dedicated my life to this but then to go and share a meal of an animal. I killed with people I care about like tonight. We had elk chili so good. And I mean, I can't I can't explain to somebody who maybe hasn't done. I can't explain it correctly. But to what that feels like as 100
To do that is it just I mean it just feels right. It feels like that's how that's what it's that's how we're supposed to conduct ourselves and and share our kill and provide and it just when somebody is eating a meat some meat that I've killed and they say man, this is so good. It's like it. I mean, it makes it all worthwhile. So it's all about I love it. I love that you're so connected to every piece. I feel very fortunate in my own life that
Yo, I've dedicated myself to Gathering organizing and dispersing information and I'd be doing that even if I did not a podcast and I love every piece of it and it's so clear knowing you and coming up here especially today and going through first the The Rock and then bow hunting excuse me shooting a bow archery. I was archery see I'm a true novice. We have them both hunted yet, but we will we were hunting I was hunting paper.
I get that's right. Yeah, they were very stationary to them. Yeah, they didn't smell us. They couldn't another difficult to hit. Uh, sorry bowhunting first step toward bowhunting would love to bow hunt someday. I have to tell you the archery. Well first off, I'm addicted. Hmm. That was an amazing experience. They're not many things that I try for the first time. I'm like I want to do this. Yeah so so much to say about that, you know, like Lex had me take a Jiu-Jitsu class for the first time the guys at Tenth Planet and Austin are great. They walk them.
Through it and did that and it felt great and I could see myself getting into Jujitsu but it didn't, you know didn't grab me right away that something like I want to explore this but the moment that first black yeah the Target today I want to do this. What why what is it? What is it about it? There's just something so satisfying. I mean there's a lot of steps for somebody who's never done it before. Yeah. Yeah. I knew which direction water goes out and that's about it. Yeah learning how to use
use the right musculature to you'd actually be able to draw back. I always thought that when a compound bow that when you draw back that it just sits there like you could take your hand off. Yeah. I didn't realize that you have to provide some additional like ongoing tension. Yeah citing up on it, you know bringing the minds focused a such a little narrow cone of attention. And then there's a I think it's the contrast between that Stillness.
A decision and then you know ballistic movement and then it's and it's gone like Arrow leaves the bow like that. That's it. You've set it all up. And yeah, it just feels amazing it side. It's very it's very hard to describe because a I'm brand new to it be it's so kinis. It's all kinesthetic right? I'm not sure there's a word to describe all of that and how good it feels but it feels so good. So you been incredibly gracious he gave me a bow, and I'm going to be
Using that thing in my yard, that's good. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean I'm gonna be at it. It's not everyday very close to it mountain tops has been my go-to supplements for the past seven years my exclusive keep hammering line of products offers a blended protein powder BCAAs and a pre-workout that I take every day. I also use their greens Reds and they actually have a new hydration product called hydrate that I used before every run mountaintops has been a great partner over the years and I especially love all they do to give
give back to the community every purchase made on the mountain tops website gives back to a family in need. They also give away a ton of different hunting opportunities. They even gave away an elk hunt and a deer hunt at one of my most cherished hunting spots in Utah. If you listen to the podcast you also get 20% off by using Code Cam that see am at www.mathantics.com. Did you know that there's a quote that says the hitch history of archery is a
Three of mankind. I didn't know that. Yeah Fred Bear and it's it's just a lot of people not unlike you that you've tried other things and they didn't resonate like today did but it's like it feels natural for some reason because man has been bow hunting for a long time. So it's like even though it's foreign to you specifically, it feels familiar somehow when you do it or powerful or
or like this is what I'm supposed to do why it does that I've no idea. I just know that it does and I've seen I've seen people react the way you're reacting to a right now and Joe was one of them and it's just it's just something that I don't know of can be described. This is simply or I don't know. I don't know if there is a way but it's other than man has hunted we're you know.
Were born to hunt some people don't do it. You don't have to you can you can buy food but man when you're immersed in it, it's it's not only life-changing but it just feels like this is what this is what we're supposed to be doing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I've shot rifle shot pistols before and enjoyed that but it didn't resonate for me in the same way. I didn't feel connected to you know, the mechanics of it in the same way. I haven't done a lot of it but
Maybe need to do more but I think with the with archery with the bow that you know, I realized I'm loving every step. I love had that little Arc. What do you call that thing comes arrest the rest comes up slow and you're like, here we go. And then you know and then trying to take the right positioning with feet and arms and back and all that and yeah breathe, but get into a position where you can make adjustments and then yeah, there's something about that contrast between Stillness and then so much motion.
Ocean. Yeah, then you have to be relaxed. So you have to be calm relaxed and precise back here. And then as you said it's just like an explosion but a release of the arrow and then you didn't wait till you experience the Arc of that Arrow. So once we get to distance with your with your bow and arrow set up there's that release and then you watch the Arrow Arc and then hit home and that is like we were closed today. So it's hard to see that our can appreciate.
That but when you get to distance and you can watch that and that's that's like the closure of that that repetition. There's nothing like it. That's why I like point, you know, once we get out of distance, we put the balloon up and then you can watch it and you see the arrow Arc and they hit and there's a immediately or that immediate indication that my are alone were supposed to it's incredible. Yeah. I'm glad I'm glad you're so enamored with oh, I'm completely taken, you know, if anyone's listening to this and thinking oh, it's just because these are like
I've completely taken by the experience. I'm thinking about it more now, you know, one of the things that I'm absolutely obsessed with his time perception and how elastic our perception of time is and when we get our eyes into a narrow area are phone or like think about a watchmaker you paying a lot of attention to something even like, you know, I was watching the gentleman at the shop to remind me his name. I try and try and I apologize Trent, you know, making some adjustments to calibrate the bow, you know, you getting into that narrow cone of attention. It's almost like things are
Slow motion right before you leave release the arrow. So you're you know, you bring your cone of attention and in small visual areas. We know that you can register very small movements. That's kind of a dud and that's because you're in taking lots of visual frames. It's like frame rates High which means slow motion like when you see slow motion of a dunk that's because frame rate was high high speed, but then you go into this totally different frame rate when you release the arrow. Mmm, and it's you know, it's just spectacular and
And I think it doesn't I think it really did does cause my brain and people who like this feeling the brain to go. Wow, like it's you know, and and it's related to your movements and your steadiness and all that. So I'm totally totally taken. Yes smitten your well and I like because you because you're so busy and you have so much going on and you know, usually it's like this intellectual type areas where your operating right but
I like that when you were shooting that your bow today. It's like that's all you could be thinking about you couldn't be solving these world problems or answering these questions from these people or educating as you do as a professor. It was like it was all this all like, okay, what do I need to do to release this are on hill where I want to hit that's it. You can't there's nothing else that can come into the equation to make you the best at doing that and that's what that's what I love about it is it's like, you know, people say it's therapeutic or meditative like
like but it's you just have to be all in on it to do it. Right? Yeah, and I think that's powerful. Yeah, there aren't a lot of things that can bring us into the present and keep us there. Mmm, you know and until we set it down, you know that the amazing thing about the human brain is that we can think about the past the present or the future or a combination of past and present or present future is hard to think about all three at once right? But you know, I think we imagine that and you hear that people, you know, they focus too much on the future a future.
Tripping future. I don't think we do that as much as people think and I think we are rarely thinking about the future as much as people claim and I think it's rare that we are fully present. I think we tend to think about the past a lot too much too much. I mean if you think about it, the best life is to remember the past if you need to but to have the future pull you forward mmm, you know, and and to be present in each day, I mean, I've really believe that the unit of the day
day is the functional unit to really, you know, anchor oneself to the sunrise to sunset sleep at night. What are you going to accomplish that day? Maybe even need to divide the day into thirds, but at least the unit of the day and then the unit of the week, you know, it's not a coincidence and that we follow that and but you know the moment you start trying to think about what you do for more than a week. Maybe say I'm gonna do down the line you put on the calendar, but you can't really impact things out that far except what you do right now. Yeah.
So I love you know, the keep hammering slogan Mantra whatever you want to call it law of nature for you. Yeah applies because it's that in incessant like now no no you want to be better next year. Now, what are you gonna do today? And so I think archery clearly brings you into the moment. There's no question. I feel the only thing that's ever, you know, not the only thing but something that also brings me right into the moment is when I do my solo
Gasps mmm, it's always just me and Rob in the room. Right when I think about what I need to accomplish at the beginning. Like I don't know how to do this. I always allow myself for pages of one-sided notes. No teleprompter despite what people say and then I'm right as we start. I'm looking at the little bead in the camera you'll and I'm always just think oh my God, I don't know what to do. And then you just start segmenting. Yeah. Do the intro to this do this do this when you hit the end. You're like, well, that's how you do it. You break it down it sort of the how do you eat the elephant?
One bite at a time. So I think with archery I also loved that I loved the sequence of steps is some fixed and I loved that. Yeah. Well, it's like knocking the arrows putting the button the arrow in you know, you know, I heard you don't you drive fire. Once you destroy the Bro great. I love rules right because it's like there you go. I'm never going to drive. Mmm. So I was really slow as you know, something like checking every time I love that the a like the details and how those matter but I love it when there's a fixed sequence.
It's because I do believe that you can break things down into a sequence will then you can get better each piece and each piece getting better help you improve and yeah, but I know at the end of the day, it's also just wraps. Mmm quality reps, right? Yeah, like with anything Todd casting running lifting. I mean, you know people always probably ask you to like, you know, what does it take to get really good at something. It's like about 10 years of rest and then just keep going and going and going
Yeah, I mean people have asked if I ever get tired of running the same because I run Pisgah everyday asked if I ever get tired of it and I don't I don't even think about it like, oh, I'm tired of this. It's just like this is just what I do. It's just like there's no
I don't know. It just seems weird to me to be bored with something like that because it's not even part of that's not an option. It's like no I need to run them out because I need to get 1000 foot of game every time I climb to the top of this hill so we're what it looks like her what it feels like doesn't really matter is I'm achieving what I need to do for the day. It's a non-negotiable. Yeah exactly. What what is the least amount of sleep? You've ever run pissed grown? I've not. I've not slept.
Times and then you still force yourself do it? Yeah, I've never I mean, yeah, just like everybody I had covid a couple times. I never ran less than 10 miles no matter what day I had. What day of covid I had. It's just like I'm running 10 miles. I don't give a shit about anything. So that's I don't miss day. I mean, it doesn't matter what happened. You're a beast. I love it. I think non-negotiables are the best deadlines are the best. I wouldn't have a career for went deadline. It wouldn't have my degrees. I wouldn't
Deadlines are the only thing that worked for me. Yeah, I was gonna always I saw I mean, I just want to hear you. I mean, I know people have asked you this many times but so your story of the Andrew huberman Journey all I know, you know, I follow you I see what you do, but I had never seen like the impact in person of you like I did last night. So Thursday night University of Oregon from five to about eight and a huberman is
Speaking and it was packed. They said K only I was out there, you know before he got there. I was out in the hall and they said they announced only 500 people can come in. So once it's full doors are closed people started streaming in they went got in there and said, oh looks like maybe maybe 10 more people could come in but there was more people than 500 on a Thursday night, you know young college kids. I want to come hear you speak.
That is you know, other than maybe like a Taylor Swift or I don't even know who but a scientist, you know, it's kind of weird. Right? Does that feel weird to you or you so used to it now because you I mean you've been teaching for a while you've been at Stanford for years is are you used to it? Because to me, it seems like crazy to think that kids would voluntarily go to hear a scientist speak.
I'm definitely not used to it. I mean, I taught undergraduates when I was a junior Professor. We say junior professor before you get tenure and tenure is really, you know, do a certain amount of work in a given area and you get essentially I could 10 years basically academic freedom. You can still lose your job people think like how long does it take to be tenured depends? I mean anywhere from five to ten years after you start your faculty position at places like Stanford and some of the other you know,
Top top tier universities. It can take even longer and 12 15 years sometimes so my goal mean without getting into my full back story right now we could talk about if you want but my goal once I decided to like get my life in order, which was when I was 19, I was to get my PhD by time. I was 30 to get a faculty position my time. I was 35 and to get tenure by time. I was 40. Hmm and I wrote it down while I was at the I mean, where'd that goal come from? Yes.
I can come back this up and then we can kind of get to what I think might be going on in terms of the interest in science and the podcast but but I'm definitely not used to it, you know, because podcast started in January 21, so we're about three years in prior to that. I did a year of going on podcasts Rogan likes freedmen Rich Roll etcetera, but prior to that I put a few things out on the internet in 2019 and prior to that. I was just completely underground. No social media. I had it but I post pictures of my dog. Yeah. So yeah.
Yeah, miss him. Well today multiple times on that rock. I was just thinking about some of the harder hikes that Costello and I had taken to how we overeat because he was a Bulldog Mastiff. And and now you just yeah, you know, and I just come on let's do this. Let's do this, you know, and um, I was thinking man, he really put out the effort for me. Yeah Bulldog will die for you. They're lazy as hell. Hmm. And anyone owns Bulldog knows that he didn't have an underbite. So you had it like, you know traditional B, so he
Breathe a little bit better. But the Bulldog relationship to its owner is they'll absolutely die for you and I you know this because when you have one they face the door whenever you have people over they love a crowd but they always face the open door. Mmm, and then someone comes through that door, they're friendly but economy if they sense that you don't like them. They'll just get right between you and anything he got between me and an ATM giant ATV on the beach want it looked like to Tiananmen Square picture. Yeah. This was no small a TV, right? There's a giant
thing and they were just laughing and they'd move toward him and he'd move toward them is a vehicle run them over. Yeah, that's how dumb they are and yet How brave they are really really are they're super loyal. So the quick version of the back story is that you know, my dad's a scientist. So I grew up knowing what science was he was physicist and I had a pretty traditional upbringing to parents at home. I got a sister three years old me would sit around the dinner table every night TV was off. It's
Wholesome environment for the most part, you know, I was fortunate in that was there pressure to be assigned to beat to make something of yourself. No, I think early on they were worried about me because I was obsessive about learning. So when I was like six, I'd spend all my time and you know, pet stores cataloging all the fish. I was obsessed with medieval weapons. So this kind of interesting that you know, pull around to today with the archery and then I would go into class.
And I would ask if I could give lectures in class when you're say when I was seven or eight. Hmm and they let me do it because otherwise I wouldn't shut up. Mmm and my voice back then was the same it is now my nickname was froggy when I was a kid. I have a mutation that affects my adrenals that actually I had hair on my Adam's Apple when I was a little kid. So I was like this little like man like professing right? They make fun of you. Oh, yeah. I got teased froggy. Yeah, froggy froggy and I was obsessive about
Legos and I was obsessive about fish and I was obsessive about biology and learning. I'm love the encyclopedia Guinness Book of World Record. I would just be talking about all the time and your lectures beyond that stuff like that. Yeah, I'd say, you know, like today we're going to talk about the cichlids and these are African fish that when the pawn shrinks they get aggressive and it has to do with a hormone and then I explain what a hormone. I was like nine at that point. You know, it's kind of a weird right, you know as a weird like by today's standards. They probably would have said oh, you know, he is on the Spectrum but
But I'd friends I was socially connected not the kids on the Spectrum can't be but I was socially well well connected but I always loved learning things and then I couldn't help myself but share the information. So that was a big part of my childhood. And so my parents I think we're less concerned about that. Then they were the fact that you know, they just kind of couldn't bring that energy to to a calm resting place. I'm just constantly foraging for information and sharing it. Mmm, and I did some sports I played soccer.
Water and swam like every kid in my area but I was not a good athlete and even though I had the voice thing, I wasn't particularly strong or lean or anything it was you know, life proceeded pretty normally and then when I turned about 13 14, my parents got divorced it was a unfortunately a very high conflict divorce. I mean, I love them both. I've reconnected with both of them and real ways, but I would say you take the list of all the things that parents shouldn't do in a divorce. They basically did a mall. Hey guys.
If you want to be a smart as famed neuroscientist Andrew huberman PhD at Stanford. Well sadly that's probably not going to happen. But I did find something that can help and that's hvem in Ketone IQ actually down one right before reading this if I sound decent it's probably why because I'm not sure if you guys realize how much brain power podcasting takes but whatever I can take that will at least make me sound smarter. I'm in Ketone IQ is it
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And so, you know at that age what happened was I there wasn't a lot of Parental oversight at that point. My dad was out of the picture largely. My mom was really struggling to with the whole change in our family structure. My sister was out of the house and I you know at that time I was getting really interested in skateboarding. And so that's a sport. We don't need parents around. It's also a sport we have people of all ages. Mmm, you know, so I started going up really young hanging out with skateboarder is going up to San Francisco to
Different city than the is now and there was this place called Embarcadero the EMB. How did you get there? We take the 7f boss or we just hop in a car with a guy was like 16 as license and went you know, that was kind of how skateboarding worked and to be really clear. I wasn't very good at skateboarding. I wasn't bad but I wasn't good and I kept injuring myself. My body hadn't gotten strong yet and you know I hit puberty on time, but it was a long slow puberty, you know, like I didn't start shaving so I was out of college but I hit puberty when I was 14, right?
So in those years I was what could only be described as just like feral Wayward youth. I was true in a lot. Somebody wants to go to school mainly avoided drugs and alcohol and smoke a little weed this kind of thing, but start getting in fights. I saw a lot writes a lot of fights got a fast education, you know, some of those kids Embarcadero is filled with great people, but also some criminals and sociopaths a lot beatdowns. I saw murder not there, but
You know elsewhere of like right in front of me, like whoa, see someone stabbed and killed right in front of you and then I wasn't going to school very much I start getting in trouble and eventually I ended up in Youth detention, which really woke me up right the moment that key closes you like on messed up like Almighty majeure because I've been put on a skateboard sponsor mostly out of sympathy. Like I said, it was a very good. Yeah, that's like hey, you gotta help me out. I'll never forget what he said. Steve roogie was a great guy. I'm still in touch.
Of them said to me he goes man. I can barely take care of myself and he goes and guess what? You're the most normal guy. I know and I thought oh my goodness. Like I'm really in trouble. Yeah. Anyway, I eventually got out but while I was at your parents doing it and I mean were they weighing in on it? Oh, yeah, they'd show up because once a week you get visitors and they and the people who ran the place where really good people and they're trying to sort out what was going on at home. You know, they're wondering all sorts of things. Is there physical abuse is there actually and fortunately for me none of that happened, right?
But they realized that I was not I was pretty neglected. That's the reality was no one could take was in a position to take care of me and you give me what I needed or you'll only at that time I was because you know, my community of friends in skateboarding were great, but they weren't equipped to deal with this. Yeah, even the older guys we knew some of whom I'm still in touch with one of them who I really adore in the use of close friend now is Jim Thibault was kind of you know, one of these
Guys who really had his act together early married his high-school girlfriend and like he took care of the community, but and he gave me some books encouraged me to write he had written some poetry books increased like right, you know kind of get your thoughts down, but that was a you know, that wasn't gonna get me where I need to go, but it really helped, you know, and in some ways it was really a Lifeline. So I always journaled and then when I got out a condition to being left back in school is that I would do therapy now, this is like late 80s early.
No one did that right the movie Good Will Hunting hadn't happened, you know, none of that none of that. And so I would secretly go to this therapist because I was so embarrassed and he was a real really smart guy and he said listen, you're very physical. I think you need to learn take care of your body keep getting hurt. So I sought out a football coach in my school and started lifting weights a little bit. I started running a little bit and unlike skateboarding where you hit the concrete all the time and you getting hurt those Sports were.
Cities were more effort based. So I was like, Hey, the more I run the further I can run and then she ran cross-country for a year. I was not again not a good athlete but I start taking better care of my body now, unfortunately in that time, I also got a great girlfriend, but then we start getting into some more serious trouble. We kind of started dabbling in drugs and things like that and she had a tough situation at home. We drank too much mostly, but you know by time I got to my senior year of high school. She graduated she was a year earlier.
Me went to UC Santa Barbara and I was going down to visit her and just she was like my family and then I realized you know, I don't want to let her go, you know, I don't want I loved her she's amazing. Like I want to be with her. So I started taking fire science classes my senior year of high school. I figured I'd be a firefighter physical. I like hanging out a big crew of guys like at that time. It was mostly guys like its service to the community like a good thing great career and somehow I don't know how
How Camp somehow I got into UC Santa Barbara hmm. I mean I probably shouldn't say this but I'll just say it because I haven't been crystal clear about before what I'm about to say. I do not recommend but the morning of my SAT
My mom who is at home at that point said hey, you got to go into school and take the SAT. I take and a half hit of acid the night before hmm. I didn't sleep don't take LSD when your kids kids just don't take LSD period so I go in and I just start I'm you know, I feel like my name fill out the other information and then I start filling out bubbles filling out bubbles not even reading the questions are what just filmmaking pictures with the bubbles music.
It could have only been and I'm serious here. It could have only been divine intervention that I cracked a thousand on the SAT.
I crafted the house and I wrote a decent off essay about my life which was honest and they let me in. Wow. So I go to UC Santa Barbara and this is a great opportunity. Right? I can go into college. She's there I completely blow it. Hmm. I get there. I'm like, this is like a free-for-all like I you know, I'd already been in environments where there were no rules. All these kids are like away from home for the first time and I'm like getting in fights. I'm spending all my time at the gym or tie got really into
Boxing I was just complete knucklehead. Right and she and I would split up get back together. Anyone she date I'd get into fights. It was just a mess right now. But yeah, yeah, and then at the end of my senior year actually got into enough trouble that I was banned from going within a 200 yard radius of the of the dormitories. Hmm. So I was like look this isn't working. I'm a move home. So I moved home and went to Community College but the summer before the summer between that
At first year and when I moved home July 4th 1994, I go to a party with a bunch of friends and there's some guys are ripping off the house. So what do you do beat him up? Right because if you're
not go ahead like I work then
for guys I get into a fight with all these guys is huge male a bunch of people in the street, you know, and luckily I didn't get hurt. No one got killed or stabbed. Although it got really tense, you know, and I did fine. I stayed up, you know, I wasn't some sort of tough.
I brought like I'd been in a fight so, you know, it's you know, there's some things that you can do like not tell people you're going to hit him. Yeah, just yet. You know those kind of yeah, but listen, I had already had one friend get Colt cold-cocked at a bar and ended up with permanent motor cortex damage. He still walks with a limp today. Hmm. So, you know fights. We think oh, you know, you know boys boys, but yeah, you can injure the brain damage or someone can pull out a gun or knife. So after that,
I went home to where I was squatting. I was squatting in a empty home that at that summer in Santa Barbara and I realize I'm like, I'm I'm officially a loser. I am 19 years old girlfriend. I are split up I screwed up my first opportunity or the opportunity to get a college education. I'd gotten straight season to use my first year if I even got that. Mmm. I already been to Youth detention once but now I'm 19. I'm delivering Bagels. I don't like the guy.
Owns The Bagel Shop have a bad attitude.
Like I'm officially a loser.
Did you did you I mean is that did you accept that that you're losing did you think that I'm capable so much more? I just need a break. What was your
mindset? I think I was in a bitterness about what had happened in my family life. I think I was angry to be honest that like, I wasn't good at anything. I was like, I'm not good at skateboarding like and I mean like when you know, then you know, they had a victim like victim mentality and you know, I knew I had a strong drive and a
Passive do things but I kept thinking, you know, who's going to be the great teacher that's going to get me excited about a subject and actually wrote a two-page letter to my mom.
I still have it where I said, you know, this is it I'm turning it around. I don't care if the teachers are good. I'm gonna just do the work and blah blah blah blah blah blah and a bunch of stuff. I you know
about anybody tell you you or intelligent or because right now people if they think of you now, you're like one of the most intelligent people they know of they listen to you. You're just like you could throw any topic out and you have some amazing answer did you?
Intelligent didn't anybody tell you you're you're smart. No, loopholed Optics has been providing my binoculars and eyewear for the last few years. I like that. It's an Oregon company and they make such high quality glass is all I've really used and if you can't find what you're hunting is going to be tough to kill. So loopholed Optics has really played an integral part and My Success, he's last few years. Thank you loopholed for supporting the podcast. I
had some carryover from when I was younger that I have a really good memory.
Marie and then when I'm excited about something I really throw myself into it and but you know, I don't no one told me I was dumb but I didn't have anything to show for my time. All I had was this story about how things went wrong. And that was really that the switch in my head. It was when you're young people can say, oh my God, you poor kid, you know, all this stuff happened and I'm not getting into the details of my home life early on it was you know at from about 13 to 18. It was super dark.
I mean there were times where I go home and I was just completely alone and you know, and I lived in a community where that wasn't common so it was easy to hide but I had friends whose parents, you know, I'd go to their house and he dinner with them or my mom was doing the best. She could you know, and I really want to be clear, you know, she her idea of family was nuclear family to parents the kids and when that fell apart, I think she just went into a
tailspin. Yeah gave up. Hope a little
bit. Yeah it just a total tailspin. So
I think what happened that summer after that July 4 1994 and sort of funny because you know, not that I worry if people believe the stories are not but recently there are a couple very well-known musicians and people that were actually at that that became well known people in the world who talked about on other podcast, you know, and I had a reputation after my freshman year being the guy that was fun to have at a party because I was gonna it was gonna be a fight or we'd get mattresses up on the roof and set him on fire and then jump onto
Like I was just like crazy guy was while before there was jackass there was like everybody that was doing that anyway crazy stuff. Yep. So, you know that that letter was really about like enough is enough and actually looking back. I realized just now, I mean, that was me parenting myself. I'm like, I'm gonna be a good parent to myself because no one else can control me write my parents might have
tried so letter was to your mom, but it was really to you.
It was like Hey, listen, whatever he's gone on in your past. It's going to be
nothing to the world unless you clean your act up down. So I moved home and I went to Foothill College was a community college and when you move home to Community College, you're with all the kids. That didn't leave. Yeah, you're with the kids in high school. That didn't leave and most of them are it's a commuter school. No one lives there and I would say most of them at that time. We weren't staying they were like dude taking a couple classes and then leaving, but I will say this because I think people here on
Stanford, I'm a tenured Stanford Professor. I'm a huge fan of the community college system. I mean, it's extremely inexpensive compared to University
because I think some people feel like that's a failure inside the E. They didn't get into the four-year school and now they got to go to Community College Board it or they can't afford it or maybe their grades weren't good enough and so they need to go get an associates or something. But you're there with 40 year old moms, you know, and it's like some kids feel like it's a fell railed experiment.
And they have to settle for Community
College. Well, I think also I'd spend so little time in high school that I didn't have the basics. So I got a great education at Foothill for two quarters quarter system. I took our history. I took some psychology some biology and I'm like, that's it. Like I can do this I get if I you know, I started working really hard memorizing my textbooks working really hard I go to the gym.
I was reacted well to the weights, you know, I might buy could grow quickly. I was still running lifting and I start studying for real and I was like, okay, I'm pretty good at this.
If I study it's kind of interesting everyone thinks school so hard that they tell you what you need to know. Yeah, I mean, it's sometimes the tests are hard or the lectures are difficult to parse, but they have office hours where if you go, they'll explain what they meant. If you didn't understand, I mean, it doesn't get any easier than that in life, right? It's time consuming but it doesn't get any easier in that the challenge can be balancing, you know too many classes. So for sure and some classes are downright hard. Yeah, but I decided this is it so I be quickly became a straight edge.
Student at the community college and then I decide to go back to Santa Barbara because I taken a leave of absence. So they let me back in even though I wasn't allowed within 200 yards of some of the classrooms. I had to kind of say can I come in to just this classroom had some mess and people reacted very strangely. They thought you know, who's this?
Guy now, you know he left he was this kind of like wild one. You know, I mean someone send me some pictures from my time in Santa Barbara recently and I think the one like I always had a shaved head back then and I had like a can of WD-40 and I like
blowing like I know flame flame.
Yeah, we were just wild is like, where's the activity and come back and I live in a studio apartment by myself and I no joke. It was sit down set the timer. I'm going to study allow myself to listen to Rancid.
My favorite band by a long shot. We're Bob Dylan and I won't even let myself get up to use the bathroom unless that timer
buzzed and how long does the
timer the usually two hours at a time which
sucks if American coffee and that was studying
studying. So do I would do for two hour blocks? Mmm and just go
eight hours a day at least 8 hours a day.
I'd allow myself to lift allow myself to run and to eat of course.
Mmmm who paid for the
apartment. Yeah, so that's it. That's a good question. So I was very fortunate.
Unit that I got some support from my dad. Mmm who at that point was kind of like listen it's do or die for you and I should mention this earlier, you know, as an academic. I thought you know, like there was a part of me back then was like a few you know, like like, where were you when I needed you, you know, like like, you know, where were you kind of thing and he and I have since worked out our stuff we're closed mmm, but you know, he was like listen, you have a great opportunity with the public education system. You know, I actually said I
To go to Whitman. I want to become a journalist as private school up in Walla Walla, Washington. I'm a journalist and he looked at the tab like how much it was going to cost because of how you gonna pay for it. Yeah, and and so I said would you pay for he goes no and actually was the right thing for him to do. He's like, I want you to go to a big school big place with public education. My taxes have been paying for this and go so I got some help from him and I
worked I you basically you humbled yourself enough to accept his help because some kids would have said no, I don't
Don't want anything to do with you. Fuck you,
right and he was an academic and I thought at one point I was like I'm not going to be an academic because you know, you guys you are because you are you want and I realize it was just going to be self-defeating, you know, cut off your nose to spite your face kind of thing. So I also earn some income working at a supplement store. Hmm. It's kind of funny how you know it near a gym because I could study when people weren't in there. Hmm, so and I got free gym gym membership. Nice. I was able to you know support part of my requirements, you know my life.
Expensive and I decided I don't care who the teacher is or how much they annoy me. I'm going to be in the front row and I'm going to ace these classes like and so I became kind of a beast. I would academic be academic Beast. It was like, I just put everything I had into getting the top score, you know, my girlfriend back then and we're still in touch. She's happily married and we talk every once in a while. She was like I was like, I created a monster she was much more studious than I was how and she had grown.
Own up in a home where she raised horses and you know, as you know, probably people who raise horses like have to do hard work shovel manure horse horses get call Aquino like it's hard work like she was a physically hard worker and worked hard and her dad only had a seventh grade education and made something of himself coming in this country. Yeah. I know so we started seeing each other again, which was good, but it was all about getting my life in order at that point. And at one point I met a guy his name was Harry.
Allowing he was an ex-navy guy who's a neuroscientist believe or not a physiologist. He worked on how the body reacts to cold cold thermogenesis. Yeah, and I started working in his lab and that was it. I was like now there's a Hands-On piece, you know, we're doing experiments injecting rats and putting up their brains and you know doing and I was like man, this is really good like a and I it just, you know, get built on itself.
Yeah, I would still go out of a
momentum gets momentum and he was the one who said, you know, you're pretty good at this you should go to
You at school they pay you in the Sciences to go to graduate school. And so I applied to Berkeley and Princeton. Don't ask me why but I did grab eventually graduated with honors, you know and took neuroanatomy, which is my was a hard course did well in that
are you seeking out the hardest courses or just courses that interested you
courses that interest me
especially course like you had like you like the challenge of part of this like yeah, you said you wanted us front row.
Highest grade maybe those courses were that the most reputation in the most difficult. There was I don't know.
Yeah, like there was a course in neural development and I got a b-plus in still pisses me off and the guy that taught it been Reese was the toughest professor and I loved it. I was like man, like like I love this stuff I was add. So I love the material and a lot of those courses were really
hard was he had tough Professor like how I mean was he a beast to like you?
Oh, yeah. He taught Heat.
He taught us as if we were adult and so what you find is and their data on this that you know, the professors at crack a lot of jokes people like but they don't get as high respect ratings as the difficult professors that are various ones. Yeah. It's like take people take your student. Seriously. Yeah, I think you can still have some fun and stuff. But I made a point to like, you know later when I became a professor, you know, I don't swear in class. I keep the you know, I keep it light and we have a conversation to make things relevant, but then we get serious. We're there to learn right?
That part of the covering of the tattoos it is to keep it. I know I've heard you say you don't want to distract from what you're teaching. So is that part of that whole thought process is like I'm not joking around we're being serious. I'm serious. Look, I'm not you're not seeing any entertainment on my body or are it's not relevant right now
and it's really out of respect for the students. Mmm, you know, my dad despite us having our differences over the years. You know, he always said, you know if you show up a little
Bit overdressed to something at least it shows that you had enough respect for your host. And so in the in the classroom setting it's like yeah, I respect them enough to say Hey, listen my life my tattoos what they mean, we could talk about some other time maybe or maybe not but like right now this is about me teaching you I'm here for them. I'm not in the classroom for me. I'm although I enjoy it so back then Harry Carlisle was my favorite Professor need taught about, you know, depression schizophrenia dopamine thermoregulation feeding and hunger. He's really brilliant.
Professor and then when I got into graduate school, I decided to go to Berkeley at the time. Now my parents were very happy that I had turned my life around but you know, I'll be honest. I hadn't worked out some of the Demons so I get to Berkeley and very quickly I ran into some trouble in my interpersonal life my girlfriend and I you know flailed on a statistics
Exam hmm
like and then it wasn't the right fit of a lab for me. I didn't make the rice.
Had a bachelor's in you're working on your master. I was working
on a PhD but what ended up happening was I ended up leaving Berkeley after a masters. Hmm and switching to UC Davis. Now a lot of people at the time including some folks at Davis said, what are you doing? You're in the Ph.D program at Berkeley. Berkeley is better blah blah another case where the top tier the higher ranked school isn't always the best situation because what happened was I went up to Davis on the recommendation of somebody that I Professor Berkeley and I checked it out. I met this woman Barbara Chapman
And something just felt right. I was like I like her I like the work she's doing and she said yeah, if you want to come to my lab you could transfer here or start from scratch. You know, she said I'm gonna have two kids. So I'm going to you're gonna have that lab kind of yourself, but I'll teach you what you need to know.
What do you mean you're going to have to
Kit? She said she was going to have two children in the next couple of years. And so she had a bland. All right, and she lived in San Francisco and that was a two-hour commute each way and she said you're gonna have the lab most of yourself. She knew she's gonna be missing him a long time. Yeah, and I thought perfect.
Because for me and this is what I end up doing ended up moving up to Davis. So for anyone listening if you think oh, you know, why would you ever give up a Berkeley degree for a Davis Street? Well, if the right person to work with it's a Davis if it's that chord that's the place to go. So I went to her lab and put tinfoil on the little window at 5:00 had locked the door crank. Rancid so loud and just did experiments non-stop for four years. Hmm non-stop in fact
I was supposed to take my qualifying exam and they were like we're going to kick you out of the program if you don't take the qualifying same but I was so busy publishing papers. I was already publishing papers and really good journals and finally Barbara came to me and she's like listen, I'm gonna kick you out of the lab and I was like, no no like no I loved her so much and I just was like nothing. No. No, I loved the life and she could just see that I lived on black coffee diet Mountain Dew, but it got me caffeinated cucumbers ground beef metrics protein drinks and just
Punk rock music like well, you know, what were the what were your experiments?
So at that time, I was studying neural development how the brain wires up to nature nurture type stuff and critical period development. So I was doing experiments on a little carnivore species called a ferret. They're actually a carnivore not a rodent. They have binocular vision. So I was studying binocular vision cool animals. They're real cool animals. I mean, they're kind of stinky kind of musty smell. Yeah. I kind of like the smell but some people don't like
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and they have an interesting visual system because it develops mostly out of the womb. So the the way biologists talk about their like a half-baked kitty cat. So kitty cat gestation before kitten comes out is about about 63 days or so a ferret is essentially got a pretty complex brain. It's got the bumps, which means it's kind of
The brain is complex brain. They're highly Visual and they have a 42-day just station. So when those little pups come out there it's like being able to do embryology on an animal X utero. It's a lot easier
because it's not fully developed because it's not
still in the mom and it's not still fully developed. Right? So I also started doing some work on fetal macaque monkeys with something. I didn't really enjoy but I was really interested in certain questions. I could only be addressed in a nonhuman primate and Davis had a primate Center still does hmm?
and I'll tell you I loved doing experiments and I adored Barber
like well, what do they expect like, what would you do
to yeah, so physically so what we were doing at I was injecting little Tracer dyes into specific areas of the brain looking at looking at Anatomy discovering new circuitry in the brain that people hadn't seen before I developed this toxin labeling techniques that you could do multicolored labeling in the brain to see how Pathways not just two but away from things that was was something I became known for and then I also
It out how to introduce genes that from the jellyfish which glow green green fluorescent protein into ferret. So I was making green glowing ferrets, but not just to make green glowing ferrets, but still you could visualize specific neurons in the brain. I was also recording the electrical potentials of neurons in the end. What would that tell you and I was learning a couple of things first of all how binocular vision develops mmm.
How plastic or malleable binocular vision is depending on experience something that has direct relevance to human Ophthalmology and vision and then I was also trying to discover the sort of genetics and molecules that allow a brain to wire up so precisely I mean if you think about it, it's wild sperm meets egg starts duplicating get a bunch of cells and you end up with a brain. Yeah wild and that brain can be modified by experience.
Like you have circuits in your brain specifically for bowhunting that others don't have clearly but all the wiring that's required for making sure that you breathe digestion heart rate Vision. All that has to come online before you see anything. So we were figuring out some of the chemicals that guide neurons to one place or away from another place and we had discovered there was a series of molecules that act as what called repellents they push neuron.
Out of certain regions. Now, there are two ways to wire up a very detailed map in the brain of connections one is to say you go here and guide neurons to a place the other is to say don't go here and what we discovered is that a lot of the brain wiring is by exclusion. You just say you can't go here can't go here go here by default. They go to a given location. So that's what I did in Barbara's lab and it went spectacularly. Well, I loved working for her publish a lot of papers and a lot of really good journals at that point. I was like
was that like published on paper? That's a
big deal,
right? Yeah. So publishing a paper is the final step in any project project starts with a question ends with a publication. It's a long process two to three year process. Typically most graduate students will be happy to publish one. Maybe two first author papers where they really led the project and then there are different journals, like science nature sell. The rejection rates are about 99% So 1% rejection acceptance rate, excuse me, one percent acceptance right mate that's published that's published and then other journals May
It's 75 25 and so on and I was very I was both Lucky and very hard working and I hit the you know timing right and by time, I'd finished my PhD at publish 88 first author papers, including one in science. And and that's one area Turner. It's exceedingly rare. Yeah. I mean, I'll say that, you know, most scientists will be lucky to publish one paper in nature or science in their career and I've been very lucky to have published. You know, I can't do the math right now. I've got to go back to my CV probably.
46 is it
is it a function of quality writing or the experiment
itself? It's usually the discovery the writing and the most scientific papers is pretty fractured and
pork. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, it's a result of the experiment.
Yeah. So when I finished my PhD I had really turned my life around I was like, okay. I died. You know, I did it right I was like, okay. I have a path. I know what I want to do and then I went and did
5-year postdoc which is like a residency. So where you're not taking classes, but you're just doing experiments. I did that at
Stanford for five years or five years. So how long have you been in school at this
point and I can gosh I went I left high school when I was 17 because I don't fall baby. So I my birthday is in September. So I was you know, 1718 and did five years as an undergrad because I took the time at Foothill two years is a master's for your PhD five-year postdoc five years is Junior Professor 12 years.
As a tenured professor, holy shit. So yeah, I've got a lot of time under my belt and
so but this is one so I sorry I'm I got distracted by something when you're talking about the brain and all the I mean, you mentioned it last night and this this had me thinking it's like when you think how all that works, I have to take an aside and say
How could that happen in nature is without a Creator.
Yes. Oh, well, here's the thing. I mean, we know that the program's meaning genes so genes DNA and there's DNA then there's RNA and then there's proteins and proteins are the action end of the game where they say. Hey like grow over here. Don't go over there, you know become this kind of cell dopamine cell or a serotonin self. We know that those mechanisms.
Incredibly well conserved from mice to humans. Now certain things happen in the human brain that you don't see in other species like the elaboration of the parts of the brain that are involved in context in planning, especially but the memory systems the ones that control hormones breathing heart rate. They're very similar not exactly the same but very similar, okay.
When you start to study and understand brain development as I did.
Or neural plasticity or dopamine you have to meaning I don't care if you're an atheist agnostic or believer in Creator, you have to step back and just go. Wow. Wow. Now then of course, there's this difference among scientists as to who believes in God who doesn't I'll just go on record. I'm very comfortable saying I believe in God I do. I think there are many things that science.
Explain there are certain things science can't explain but I'll even go a step further, which is that.
All the elements of science are entirely compatible with the idea of there being a God and I'm not the first scientist to say this. I mean Einstein believed in God Carl Jung the gray psychologist ever clearly believed in God. There are many atheist scientists. There are agnostic scientists who are just kind of like unsure right? And you know for me, I'm in absolute. Awe absolute. Awe.
Biology.
Mmm. It's just incredible. They were sitting here having this conversation is just it's with language that they're low sound waves that are you're perceiving an understanding. I mean, it's just and I think the brain represents the Apex of incredible in terms of biology like the heart is interesting. The immune system is interesting delivers interesting, but the brain is unbelievable. Yeah, I mean think about the number of different ways. You can move your body compared to another species. Think about what you did today. Think about what I was attempting to do today, right? Yeah.
Spectacular thing about technology these lights the you know, Tesla cars spaceships. I mean, yeah the internet I mean unbelievable and yet oh so real. Yeah. So, you know, I mean we could talk a bit about how I you know, well, I'll just say this secretly. I've always prayed I grew up in a split religion home. My family's like the UN we've got people in Guatemala Denmark Argentina New York, like all the different political battles are
in my family is super left super right Libertarians lefties to the you know, it's crazy thanksgivings can be difficult. Yeah, but I'll say this, you know, I absolutely pray. I absolutely love that the idea but also what for me is really a deep belief, which is that we can't control everything. We're not in as much control as we think we are and that the magnificence of biology in the magnificence of
Of nature is it's it's impossible that for me to conceive how that could be come about any other way. That's just it is now. Yeah, I mean, I think that you know. Who do you pray to that's an interesting one because I think God yeah, so I absolutely do I've actually started reading the Bible recently start to finish. I feel like it's my duty to like learn and in some sense compared. Oh,
The New Testament. Mmm. I'm like really I'm really interested in the stories. But I'm also I'm fascinated by The Story of Us. Right and then the story of everything and so but yeah, I pray out loud in the morning sometimes again in the middle of the night if I wake up and and it's only recently that I've been doing this more
often. It's giving you
peace. Oh my goodness is giving me so much. It's giving me. Peace.
And you know, this is gonna sound weird and probably people are gonna be like, what are you talking about? If you're this it it works. Mmm, it works. There's there's a way in which certain things I was grappling with. You know, I just couldn't resolve couldn't do it and it was all internal and I just couldn't do it.
What? How are you trying to resolve these things? Like have an
answer? Yeah disciplined myself. I mean wasn't like I was super, you know, undisciplined. I mean, obviously I have a lot of self-discipline.
Yeah, you know I like I always pray, you know, I want to remove my defects of character. I want to you know, I certainly pray for other people. I'm mostly you know, these days I pray for the ability to really harness as much care and love for other people and for myself something I haven't been that good at my lifetime.
In order to be able to put the best possible work into the world to really serve like I really see myself as serving higher
power. Hmm. Like I'm a conduit
right and the better I can do that the better I'm serving the better I'm serving more. I'm feel connected to
humanity. Do you think that with this with this? I don't know if you've always felt like this. It sounds like it's more of a newer newer feeling
but I'm what although secretly. Yeah, like in Santa Barbara. I'll just say there's this place
Speech down at the end of the beach very one's ever been there. And I used to run down there once a week. I'd always did a long run long for me run on Sunday. Yeah - the 72 pound Rock, right and I would pray. Hmm and I just pray for, you know be honest with myself be honest with
others and that was years
ago. God was 18. Okay 1920. So and then you know, I've seen some hardship along the way. I mean, I would just mention that I've had three amazing scientific advisors.
You know Harry shot himself. Hmm two weeks after I told him we publish a paper in science. He said come on down to Santa Barbara be great to take you out for pizza and celebrate. Mmm two weeks later ate a bullet in the bathtub Barbara died of cancer when she was 50. I'm friends with her daughter. I you know saw her do she did have those two kids? That one's a neuroscientist on man Mcgill and she was like a mom to me. Hmm. He died. I was speaking at her Memorial and then my postdoc advisor die.
He was pretty impressive guy in his own right? And so I had one point I'm thinking like what's going on, you know, I'm the common denominator or how am I picking these people but they were amazing and you know had some friends commit suicide, you know this kind of thing and you know, you live long enough that's going to happen people are going to go that's just the reality but there were times on like, you know is dark it was a you know, like where am I YY me that Yen at those moments to just accepting that there's a plan.
And it's happening for a reason and I don't know what it is and just putting my trust in that it allowed me to grieve those things properly and to really try and you know, I got the message. I got the download to take the lessons from them and just not waste a single day and to do things that really I really felt mattered. Hmm. So to me it's always been
linked right
to you know, sort of forces greater than me. Certainly.
Does it?
Like, you know when I'm hearing now this does it feel like once you've taken like the a more I don't know intentional turn for being grateful and praying you're not drinking since 2019. It seems like that's been in tandem with your
success. Absolutely. You know, I always wanted to have a deeper relationship to God. I always wanted that and I kind of was like, why don't I have that well,
Well, duh, that's like saying I want to be fit while I'm not I'm not fit because you're not running you're not lifting and I doing the things it was like and it was a couple of different people that kept showing up in my life and and and they were doing it and I was like, well pray. Hmm, and yep I've learned and I certainly try and do this at a lot of prayers about listening. Hmm and a lot of prayers about you ask for things or listen for things and then
An hour later two days later you go. Wait. Hmm. Like it doesn't happen in the moment necessarily just like Fitness. I don't want to compare fit and I don't want to trivialize Prayer by comparing prices, but there's some parallels and irrelevant. Yeah
consistent
work. Yeah. It's consistent where and then all of a sudden like things come up and you're like, oh my goodness. I can't believe it that makes so much sense. Now, I think that the success of the podcast first of all, I'm incredibly grateful for incredibly grateful, but in many ways I'm doing it.
Actually what I was doing when I was that six seven eight nine year old kid learning and sharing it was always in me and it always felt like this energy this thing like it's like, how do I end up like this? How come all the other kids like don't have this and how come sometimes it feels like a little bit of a not a curse but kind of a burden like what do I do with this and the Deep satisfaction for me comes from acknowledging? This is me. I've always been this way. It's not going to change and that I it's not coming from me. It's coming through me.
Right, and I just want to do right by it and I think we
talked a little bit. It's a gift and you're honoring your gift. That's right. Essentially. Yes. Yes when I feel like if we're honoring our gifts to wear
rewarded absolutely and and I think one of the biggest rewards recently comes from we talked a little bit about this on the mountain today. It's like for me The Sweet Spot that I finally get steady glimpses of is being loving.
But also realistic hmm, like like you can be so loving that you lose touch with the reality too much trust isn't good either but you don't want to be unloving to yourself and others because then you look at the world through cynical lens and then you're not going to be doing your best work. So for me, it's all about being loving but realistic. Hmm, and I think prayer helps me arrived there. It does many many other things. I also just feel like
Our time here is limited and I've been so blessed by people have come along. I mean those academic mentors meant everything to me. But so did the academic mentors that I didn't work for directly that helped me along. So did the high school football coach that talked me out of lift. So did Lex Friedman you Joe Rogan right ritual people who gave me the opportunity to talk on their podcasts about science and and then eventually, you know, we started our own
So to me, it's this like beautiful ecosystem and I never ever think of myself as like, okay, like I'm here professing to people. I just I just love being a part of it. I also just like when I was a kid, I'm crude up with a bunch of great people, you know, and it's not all guys Rhonda Patrick to who by the way folks people always say who is first man in on public facing science and health education. Not first man. First of all, my name is Rhonda. She was the first then came Matt Walker me.
Of others, right? So I think the community of podcasters also, I feel like wow like this is as great as when I discovered neuroscience and I actually feel more resonance with podcasters because it's really like of the love you can't have a podcast.
That is worth anything in terms of its success or its content unless the person doing it loves that thing right? Like you can't it's not journalism. It's not media. I mean and there's a media component because it's public facing but it's like you love bow hunting. Yeah, you love Fitness you love hammering away every day, right? And so you're basically talking about the things that you would be doing anyway, and so am I and so is Joe and so is Lexus so is rich
Sighs Rhonda. Yeah, and
we're make getting paid for this right because I do this for free
exactly. So if anyone out there wants to do a podcast or social media, what I would say is make sure that what you talk about is something that you really truly care about and Rob my producer and I were talking about this today that you know, I think young people would be wise to figure out at least three things that they absolutely love doing and hopefully one of those things can be your source of income in life. Maybe you need an advanced degree to build it up. Maybe you don't I don't think everyone.
Needs to go to college but maybe like you want to be a lawyer or a doctor. You need the
degree about a hunter. No.
No, did you great degree? Is there and out there and on the Hunts right? So I think that but if you love those things and then you also want to teach other people and share how much you love it. Well, then you should be a podcaster but you can't podcasting is not like the career the career is all the stuff that goes into the podcast, right? So anyway, I feel extremely blessed. I'm completely humbled that
This would show up on a Thursday night to listen that lecture we do Live Events and you know, like thousands people that like it's wild and then I also just turn off any kind of notion that it's like about me because it's not it's coming through me but to me and just feels like the biggest gift in the world. You just learn and share,
you know, people say they're blessed all the just kind of like a I don't I don't know doesn't mean maybe what it should it's just kind of like a half.
You know, I'm yeah, I've been blessed but when I when you when I hear you say you you feel blessed and then I see the I mean, there's people that are last night just staring at you just like couldn't believe you were there and what I saw from you was this thank you. Thank you. I truly believe you do feel blast. It's not just lip service because I saw it, but I saw these people looking and they want to put you up like on an altar, you know, and that probably feels odd.
But to me your personality your mindset or where you are allows you to be like thank you. I'm I'm a conduit. This is what this is. I've been blessed with this. I'm sharing it and it feels very genuine to me after seeing and hearing it and spending time with you. Yeah. I mean, I don't know it makes me feel
good. Well, thank you. I mean I your perception is correct that I truly feel blessed and I
I am so grateful and humbled for all of it. And I also like I'm a just have to laugh right I'm like doing the same thing as I did when I was a kid I go learn so I get excited about oh mindsets or the years the data are like I'll find a gem in the literature like might have people are going to their minds are going to be they're going to be so happy. They're going to be so many people will benefit they're going to like this like or even if they don't like it like this is super cool like to me and so it's just like geysers out of me. Yeah, and and so
People are focused on the idea of like the personality that's delivering it or fact. I always wear a black shirt of like cool like that's fine. If if that's what you know, there's an anchor point there for them. But for me, it's really about the information allowing truly about the information allowing people to feel better and do better and look. I also have a deep, you know, I'll share something. I've never shared before my mom's like a super do-gooder when we were growing up. We see a homeless guy on our
Hood there aren't it? Wasn't that frequent back. Then? There was Guy where sheepskins she called him the Sheep Man. She put him in a hotel. We didn't know this but she was like trying to save everybody and I think it eventually wore on her, you know that the world isn't healed up the way that she wished and you know, I'm not a bleeding heart but I do have a bit of that for my mom like I do believe that it's at least part of my role in being here to try and help heal.
Heal the World and and by giving and sharing And the fact I can do it by doing things that I love while also accepting that like listen people are gonna do what they're gonna do can't control everything there's a reason for it. I believe that like like humanity is not ready
yet. Mmm not ready yet.
Right-ho. Hopefully that someday right? No it will be but but I can just do my part. And so I you know, I really
trying to deepen my sense of purpose all the time. And you know, we talked about prayer earlier and asking for things and I do you know, please help me move. My Character defects get through today. That is that I asked to not get injured on the hike little little things are just kind of my more minor but then there's also the listening piece. Hmm and like here, you know hearing, you know, the messages of Hey, listen, you know, you know, you need to rest or you need to push harder. I hear that sometimes you need to push harder. You need to go deeper. You need to be more precise. You didn't hear that.
I mean if I'm in my mind that's coming from yourself from God. No not from me. I mean, I don't think that they're I couldn't come up with that message. Okay, my mind doesn't have the structure or the wherewithal to do that and it comes through as a very clear, you know message right of this is what you need to do. You need to go harder into the paint or you need to sometimes you need to rest your you need to back off when that's not my impulse. That's how I do I know it must not come
from
I see ya. It makes
me just this any I mean is any of this is this sounding crazy or is this? No not
resonate? No, I just yeah, I mean I just wondered how is that how you also deal with you've had critics? I mean everybody here everybody who stands out and is making an impact. There's people who don't they are jealous or whatever. So so there's been critics of sugar and human rights, including some
very well respected scientist and as
It
and is it because your sense of purpose and this message that you're feeling that you're able to ignore that? Well, I do you ignore
it? Yeah, at first it was hard to ignore sort of like hey, you know, like I was one and I still consider myself one of the Neuroscience Community, you know, I earned my stripes right those papers didn't publish themselves just you
know for 50 fucking years. Yeah,
and I review those people's papers and I know about them and I know they're not perfect. But you know any time you're trying to get in defensive and someone's pointing their finger at you and you're pointing back like you
Yeah, you know and it's listen, we all have that impulse including me. Yeah, I would say about a third of scientists were very supportive and said hey go for it. This is great. People are learning. I clearly understand why you're doing this and and actually I'm benefiting from some of the information a lot of scientists are really unhealthy. A lot of Physicians are really unhealthy. Look at
them, right?
Okay not it's not just wait. Sometimes it's weight. It's also just look at them. They're clearly not well, okay. So and many of them are but fewer are than aren't actually
Yeah, okay about a third. I would say just I haven't heard from maybe there's you know, and then there are no comment. No comment. Yeah, and then a third I think have been critical in part that we run sponsors and things like that and I always say look at this the podcast of me is a perfect ecosystem. The information is available free
free completely free
and you'll have to watch it. You can slide past the ad reads if you don't want but a lot of people want to know where they can obtain things that
Useful to them hopeful and they obviously choose to do some choose to do that and that helps subsidize it for the kid that can't afford it. Right. They can't afford the podcast they get it free. Everyone gets it free. And then of course the sponsors are happy. So the and the funny thing is and this was pointed out by a colleague of mine. Usually the people that are criticizing that you know that you're doing this podcast thing and there's advertisements. They're usually universities where guess what getting the education
Is behind a pay wall? So the alternative is to put it behind a pay wall, which I don't do so, it's not that I'm completely oblivious to it or that I ignore it. But what's kind of interesting and I'm sure you're familiar with this when you hear something the first time or ten times, it hurts a little bit you like. Hey being misunderstood hurts. You want us
when you're passionate about something right when it's something you've been doing since you're six years old because you love it and you're still doing it and now all of a sudden you're because you're successful you're criticized for it right because maybe
These people haven't had the success. They see you. They're jealous. And so they wanted her to tear it down or you're in shape. They're not in shape and they do the same thing and you're like, well, he's getting he's getting attention because he's jacked. Well, I think there's all sorts of ways to yeah, I think
critique always reveals people's insecurities to I mean, the first a lot of them will say say things you realize wow, they really think that I'm too saying that people have to do all this stuff. I'm just giving you options. I don't think anyone didn't what to do. I'm just giving you
up. I've heard you say that last night.
I'm your about talking about underage drinking and you said I don't I'm not telling you what to do. I'm just telling you here's what happens, right?
Yeah do as you will but know what you're doing. Yeah, and then in terms of the critique, I also think part of it is because I don't just talk about my own work or cover subjects that I've worked on. I also go and research subjects that are in other people's domain and I've always invited people to give me critique. In fact, we now have a formal portal on huberman Lab.com website where we invite if you have a
Teak put what the critique is put what the basis of your critique is right on. I don't like it. But you know are there data that are conflicting, you know, we'll see what comes in but to this day. No one's ever gotten critique, especially on Twitter / X. Yeah, but no one's actually said this is the problem I have so that they just seem on unhappy with it, but I will say it's also been wonderful to hear the people that have benefited from morning sunlight improves sleep improve focus and the number of other topics that we've covered so when you get those
Antiques early on it stings a bit, but it sort of like publishing papers when you get reviews back Anonymous reviews. The first ones you like ouch oof, but by time you're publishing your 50th or 60th
paper, you know,
it bounces off you like, you know, like cap gun fire. Yeah and the same way on social media if I make a mistake. I hope it's pointed out but if people attack mmm, I mean I've gotten so much of it. Yeah since I started that now I'm like man pretty now. I don't mind it. It also really helps to have an
In team and people around you and that another thing I love about podcasting is that it's not competitive between podcasters. We have the same guests on we run different content. So it's nice to have a community of people like you and Joe and lacks in etcetera. You can refer to if you're feeling kind of like hey how seriously should I take this is prateek, but having my podcast team which is, you know, many people but it was started as kind of 44 people robbed my enemy.
I run things by them. Hey, like do you think this is valid? We shouldn't think yes or no and sometimes it's like hey, yeah, we should we should talk about something that we could have done better. I am far from perfect. I mean I many many many flaws, but I do strive to get things right. I'll put anywhere from a dozens to hundreds of hours into
prep. I would think that so the people who say that you shouldn't be sponsored psych. Well, you're working your ass off. I mean preparing for these these teachings you're doing basically online and your podcast. It's like why wouldn't you be compensated and
People that saying you shouldn't be but are behind a paywall at the college. You know, it's almost I don't know. I mean you're offering your offering education to people who maybe never went to college couldn't afford to go to college but have learned so much from you for free. I mean, how could that be
criticized? Well, I think one issue with Academia that I absolutely have is that so much of its power.
Is derived from this in-group out-group thing? Like if people really understood how science was a hen and Have Nots? Yeah people if people really understood how science was done and that the people doing it are just like everybody else but they picked that they lose a little bit of their cash a I believe everyone should at least have the information to give them access to mental health physical health and up leveling their performance. So I make it zero cost and I think that
You know when I say everyone I mean everyone and this is one of the great things about those early challenges. I had had I just gone to school and had the perfect home and then gone off to college and then got a job and maybe I would have been a scientist. I don't think I would have the kind of understanding of what it's like to you know, like got a friend those high school years and he had 14 brothers and sisters and his mother was a crack addict and he fortunately made something of himself.
Like I don't I truly don't distinguish between the gender the Nobel prize winning scientist the homeless person on the street. I do believe in personal accountability, but you don't know that person story. Mmm. I don't know that person's story, you know, everyone deserves the opportunity and no one gets away without hard work. So there's that but I do believe that giving him information out for free in the form of clear under, you know clear to them format.
Is really key, you know a lot of academics.
Use language that you know people go
wild like they're really smart. Yeah,
but that's talking over people. Right? So people say dumbing down is bad talking over is bad.
So that's my favorite thing about you you can talk about shed. I had have no idea how to understand it but in a way I can understand it. You know what I mean?
Well, it's like it today we I was asking a lot of questions about bowhunting and thank you for that. Yeah, one of my goals like one of the big challenges for me is how to take complex information. That's like the embedded in nomenclature and make it accessible.
Yeah, I'm you challenge me on that earlier tonight. You said wait, what were you doing in graduate school? And I'm like, okay and it made me think about how the what we call them in. My field is axon guidance molecules chemo repellents and saying, you know, you build a nervous system I saying don't go here go here go here. And that's one of the things I really enjoy is trying to take complex themes and break them down into still accurate and actionable language so that the everyday person can say. Hey, yeah. I understand why I need morning sunlight circadian rhythm. I've never heard her came.
Like that makes sense. I understand why elevating your heart rate and your blood pressure with exercise would cause lower heart rate and blood pressure later because like it adapts it changes, you know, there's so many people in the world that don't have and frankly, there's no need for them to get a formal education or certainly Advanced education. So but they need I believe they need the information to
well, it can better their
life right and and and position them to do more.
In whatever Endeavor there in and position relationships in better places. So again, so I'm at the point now where if someone sends me a valid criticism meaning like I made an error then certainly I'll correct that error. But otherwise I talked to my team mmm, and if it still bothers me.
We're back to this again, but it's true. I closed my eyes and I just I asked for for guidance. What what what do I do with this? Hmm, and then I listened. Hmm and I take that in for whatever information I hear seriously.
Yeah. I'm I don't know. I don't know. I I've gained I've gained a lot from just hearing your story and it helps me understand you better which is you know, how do you really?
Stan somebody without sitting down and having a conversation like this because you know normal life you don't sit down for an hour or two hours and hear about so tell me about your life story, but it's I mean, I don't know. I think you've you're in a position now where you're impacting and we just said that, you know, you're helping improve somebody's life with maybe some tips health tips, but also that has a compounding effect because if they're performing better in life better at their job
Then others are too right because they the positive impact you've given them. Hopefully they're passing on and that's the ripple effect. We're talking about where you know, you want to make a positive difference here and honored on the gifts. You've been given what better way to do it and help improve somebody's life and health. I mean, it's I don't know. I don't yeah and I can understand I can understand I can't understand I guess but it's not surprising that people would criticize the
cast and and be in a capitalist I guess but
isn't everybody in some way.
Oh, yeah, and I'm telling you our tax dollars are paying their their salaries these people and
sure you like your parents feed a show up and like speak at the at the university is probably a lot,
right? Oh for what I did you of? Oh, yeah. No zero, I did it for you of O for nothing. They have a friend there. He asked me to do it. Now. We do Live Events and we charge a you know admissions who we try and keep their tickets price.
But yeah, he said that that right there I did that
because I wanted to come up here and see my host Chris and
University and they started the center on the science of happiness and well-being and I thought that is a great initiative. Let's go. In fact here. Yeah, we paid our tickets up. I mean, I actually booked my ticket but we extended to come here and we took care of that like, oh I'm not I did it because I was excited at the opportunity and then also to sit down and and run and carry with
you. I don't I don't want I don't want that point to be missed. I mean so you did this for your friend and you're excited about the program at the University.
Yeah, and and I enjoy it. I was like wow like and I've always loved you of oh, I've come up here for the track meet for the Olympic track and field trials except for the year covid where they didn't allow Outsiders. I went to the previous two and I love the story of Nike and pre and you know in Bowerman read the Bowerman book and I've always loved you of oh, I've always loved were again and I came up here because I wanted to hang with you and and and yeah, I mean all of it comes truly from the heart. It's like how
I mean, there's no other way to do it in my in my view. Yeah, and I will say this that as much criticism as I've gotten
I've also gotten some notes from faculty including some really like a Nobel Prize winner outside my field saying hey, I think this is great. Keep going keep going and that that really helps. But even if they didn't send me that encouragement like kind of like that kid, I was way back when I can't help myself. Yeah. It's because again, it's it's not me going. Okay, like how do I pick something that people are going to like and it's like
what's my reward for this? Yeah, I mean and that's how a lot of people
People get through life. They're like, you know, they want to know if I do this job how much am I getting per hour? You know what? I mean? That's that's most people.
I mean you got to make ends meet and at the same time doing things for money. Let's ask a few people out there. If you if you approach life that way you're going to be miserable and you're probably also never going to have enough if you do things because you love them and you do them in a principled way.
I-i've never seen it fail. Hmm. I've never seen it fail and that the idea of you know, and I've punched the clock before to right. I mean, you know, I've done that to delivering Bagels bussing tables, you know, all sorts of things but and it wasn't always easy. I mean there were nights when I'm doing experiments and experiments are failing and stuff, but you just have to be grateful for the opportunity and then just suck it up and just get right back out there. I mean wraps wraps wraps wraps around it.
I mean it works. It's always worked and it's always going to work. Yeah, and there are no real shortcuts, right? Every time we see someone trying to take a shortcut. I think it's safe to name names because I mean they're all in jail. Anyway, you know, I think Sam Bank been free got got found guilty
110 years or something like that.
I didn't see the sentence but you know, or you know Liz homes, there are no sir. I mean when people cheat, sometimes they get away with it, but you know, the shortcuts don't work and sometimes they get people and you know in jail for the rest.
Of their life and also assuming that there's some quick hack that's going to get you there is but the things that I share are really about giving people and also a sense of agency, like if people having is like a lot of people have anxiety and they don't know what to do. Like do they take medication should they meditate you know, so you give them a tool like physiological sighing people can look that up to see what it is and they do it and they go all this thing works and like now they have a sense of control and I think a lot of
People feel stricken by their biology and their psychology you give people a little sense of control over themselves and they go wow and then, you know, it's like with the bow like, you know, like I kept drawing what was it left or right? You know, you're supposed to put a little hole in the paper and I'm like ripping on a typewriter like yeah, and then and then I realized that you know that the way the string is coming off the cam as is tilted and someone looking up and you adjust and did I fix it perfectly. No, but you make that adjustment go mmm. There's a
See, they're like I can get better at this if I pay attention. Yeah, and so I think it's the same with our health. It's the same with anything and it would be a shame if we could do it. Well the first time or perfectly the first time where's the fun in
that that was a that was a good question last night, which I think Rob mentioned. He was pleasantly surprised but that one of the questions that came up was if you could take whatever heartbreak or a failure and eliminated and have it never happened and never a feeling felt like that would you do it?
And more than half of the people said no, they wouldn't do it. They liked the ER they didn't like but the feeling of failing or pain was useful and
help Define them. I was very surprised by that answer and because there are certainly some things I've failed at over and over and over, you know, I'll be open. I mean, I've been very successful in my career choices. I have amazing friendships. I'm fortunate to as far as I know have my physical health knock on wood and but you know, I've
struggled to merge my career Ambitions and the amount of time I put into that with my personal life and building a family. I'm late to that despite some efforts there have been a lot of failures and I take responsibility for my role in those absolutely but it's something I'm still striving to get right, but I don't know keep striving to get right but
I agree with what the students said fundamentally that the hardships the losses they make the good times way better sense of appreciation is so deep and also it shaves us makes us who we are and I do think having a little bit of a of a pebble in your shoe. Sometimes can keep you working harder and really persevering. Hmm. I mean certainly you're not as hard-working as you are because it's just, you know, keep hammering and
Every time it's keep hammering and you get more frequent success over time, right? But I'm guessing there were some dark years in there too. And you've written about this and some really tough stuff and you had to get a parent yourself early on to you had to Scruff yourself and be like, hey, I mean you your life took out took some quick turns towards like hey, it's now or
never. Well, I mean your story resonates with me because I felt that too. I didn't my dad wasn't around. I don't want anything to do with my stepdad.
I was on the streets walking around Portland seeing a lot of just by myself. So they like the lonely part. That's why I asked did you feel lonely? Because that was me I moved away and my brother was back here with my mom. I felt lonely. So I was like that was that really resonated with me and and I mentioned today when that rock is fucking a pain in the ass to haul up the hill but it's
like it's a it the moment you get into one position your hands start hurting then your art.
Arms,
and you move it to your shoulder and then you're good for a few paces and then that starts hurting again to move to the other side and then you're back cramps up and then your legs are cramping up. So I just
think that you know, when you go through real challenges and a heartache in life, it's little like call even though it sucks carrying the rock up the mountain that's going to be over. That's just not lasting more than an hour, you know, so it's like when you've been through real pain, you can compartmentalize and say this isn't whatever this is temporary. I'm good.
Good. So it's like you know that kind of going back to that question is like yeah, I've heard I've been in pain. I've been lonely and this isn't that yeah, I can get through this I can get through this long run I can get through this race. It's over in three days, even as two mile or two hundred
miles, it's not that bad. Yeah, I think one of the most important things for everybody to be able to say to themselves.
Knowing they're being completely honest is I can do hard things. Mmm. If it gets tough, I know I can do it because I've done it and I think you know, you can't ask the two-year-old to say that to themselves or 10 year old but maybe even the ten-year-old, you know, sadly, you know, if I had my way everyone would have the gift of a near-perfect childhood, but if I had my way also everyone would be able to experience something hopefully not so damaging that they're permanently scarred.
And dissolve into a puddle of their own tears, but they could say I can do hard things and I know that to be a fact not just a mantra because I've done hard things. Yeah or in your case. You can say I do hard things everyday
try I mean, I mostly I do it just because I feel like a fraud half the time or poser. So I have that written on the Rada right remind myself. I'm a pozer
one of the most common questions I get is how can you build confidence?
The way you build confidence is by doing hard things hard for you, like really challenging failing that class that neural development class that been Reese gave me that B+ still pissed off about that because failing by the way, there's no but but what coming from where I was coming from anything less than an a was a failure was was like the beginning of the slide back to being there we go if 18 year old. Yeah, and I worked so hard and I saw that this that B+ is
Favorite course my favorite grade because it reminds me like it was the hardest class. He was such a difficult Professor to like to the material was like postdoc level super difficult and I just think like I can do hard things. And yeah, I think it's that simple. I mean it's a short sentence but it's one that if you know, you can state it to yourself. Honestly, then you can get through whatever and that's confident
I do.
You like that one thing that I you know have noticed with you if you're always giving credit to is who is that a stand for? Is it
Liz? Oh on a limb key. Yeah. Yeah, one
of my favorite people you've been my favorite people you're always referencing people. You've worked with professors people who have impacted you you're always naming names and a lot of people. Skip that part. Yeah. Well talked about how much they've done or how much they've overcome and they forget the help along the way but you you never do I mean, I've heard you many
Listen to your podcast listen to you last night. I listened to you today. And it's like you're always quick to share share accomplishments share not where you learn something the lessons you've learned people who's helped you and it's like I just love it because a lot of people once they get to the top they forget all that part. You know what I mean?
Well, thanks for mentioning that for me like it's a little bit difficult to articulate, but when I'm on a Lemke came and gave a lecture on Addiction in my course that
I teach the medical students the neurobiology course and I heard her lecture. I was like she needs to come on the podcast. She's amazing and she was yet to release her great book dopamine nation and the fact that I've gotten to know her and she's a spectacular human being but also that her message about addiction is just so powerful mechanistically makes sense and practical and on and on and that she's so generous. So for me mentioning that first of all, it's what's appropriate because she did all that work I did.
That work second of all like I feel so lucky that I know her is the same way. I feel about knowing you I feel so lucky. I mean, I'm I think I'm I know I'm going to be doing archery, you know, like I just know it and know whether or not Bolin I guess will remains to be seen, you know, but that's that would be a wonderful place to take it. But so I'm so lucky or like Joe and what Joe is done to help me, but also just
Just I love his podcast and I think he's done some truly important work in the world by having guests on like Matt Walker. Mmm.
I don't worry Tia.
You don't like my Walker and he talks about sleep. No
will get your
sleeve ironed out. Matt's a really good guy. But the mat he doesn't dislike you it seems that Kim has trouble. I'm just joking. We'll get him squared away. But you know, so I feel so blessed like how lucky am I that I know these incredible people lacks tells me start a pockets and I meet Rob who's like helps me.
And we bring in Mike who's a photographer. Like I'm I'm like Beyond grateful. Yeah, so when I'm crediting people, I'm not thinking oh got to do this. I'm thinking I'm so grateful. It's like it it's weird. It's more about a feeling in me that you know, I feel like I'm the luckiest guy in the world and and I'm just doing what I would do. Anyway, if there was never a camera or
microphone. Yeah. I just I just really notice it because a lot of people would say instead of mentioning names. It's a call.
Colleagues colleague and I have worked on this project or I read you know, so it's just it's just I just noticed it and it's like it's I love it. It's awesome. And yeah, I mean you seem as genuine as as can be on on your Pursuits, but so I didn't want to I kind of interrupted you talking about I think faith in a Creator, but you talked about you got kicked out of what you were four or five years and finally your professor had the two kids came.
I can said you got to go so then what happened?
Yeah, so I graduated from my PhD and how do these papers which then I allow you to do a postdoc. So I did a postdoc at Stanford, but there's a Twist in the story. Okay. I took a postdoc at Harvard. Hmm because
Harvard's Harvard. Yeah, what does that what does I don't even know what the fuck a postdoc my postdoc
is like is a four or five year period in which you just do research and you develop your own independent ideas that then you're going to take to your own lab as a professor. So
I went to Harvard. I was supposed to start my postdoc January 1 2005 Excuse me. Yes, January 1 2005. I arrived there Halloween night and I started attending lab meetings of this particular Professor, even though I haven't started there yet. So he's not paying me and I observed some things in his treatment of other people including the janitor.
And I'm like, I don't think I can work for this guy. Mmm. I mean
he was unkind he was impatient and I thought oh no, so I told him listen Professor
Lambo.
So I told him I said, he's the head of brain Sciences at Harvard at the time. Like what am I going to do? So I call someone at Stanford that had given me an offer earlier and I said, I'd like to come there and I go to this person at Harvard and I said,
And you know, I'm gonna go this isn't going to work and you haven't started paying me so I'm going to go before you start and he says no you're not leaving now.
I'm an adult. I've cleaned up my life. But I also grew up in a skateboarding punk rock
scene. Mmm, like,
you know, you're not going to tell me no, I'm telling you this time bout 2826 ago. Yeah, so yeah, I was but the 30 years old. Okay. Yeah. He said listen, I think you're depressed. You're not thinking clearly hmm, maybe having some mental issues. I want you to see a psychologist and come back. Hmm.
And I left and I walked in the next day and I said I'm leaving here are my keys and he said you're not going and I said watch me and I left and I was like, oh my God now at this point, I don't have a professorship. I'm afraid right? I mean, you know, where's my career going to go? Can you be blackballed? Oh, yes. Oh, yes,
so I go but risk,
that's a huge risk, but I just couldn't do it. Fortunately. There was someone back at Stanford who was eager to have me in his lab. So I
His lab and I said listen, I'll work on whatever you tell me. He said well, you should do the thing that you were going to work on in that lab and I go no, I don't want any beef with that guy. Mmm and he goes no you absolutely should do it should take him on and I was like, you're kidding me. No. No, I don't want to any but he convinced me. Hmm. And in the end I ended up in a direct competition with that lab, except they've got an army and I'm one guy. Hmm, and I had to be clever and how I the projects I picked and in the end I held my own publish those papers did well as opposed to
Doc and got hired to run my own Lab First at UC San Diego and then and then I transferred my
lab just a was what was the paper on
so at that time I was and this gets a little technical but that time what we were trying to figure out was we're still trying to figure out the wiring of the nervous system, you know, huge acute question that still unresolved as you know, what are the circuits in the brain and we know that you know, the visual stuff is in the back and the you know, the planning stuff is in the front but the fine wiring and so I was still developing.
Genetic tools to visualize those connections and so as a postdoc the way I competed with other lab and they got theirs do they did pretty well too was I developed a lot of tools and I gave them all away. Mmm, and as a consequence the community out published him. Hmm, or at least made it certain that he didn't get full credit whole crowd. Yeah, you gotta share and that was kind of my like, you know, that was my piece and you also when you share why
Widely, people are grateful. Hmm. When you share widely, you suddenly have friends that are teaching you new things that you didn't know and I realized this is the key like you don't cold everything close to your chest you give it away. Now you protect your own Pursuits, right? You don't give everything away right? But I was like, wow, there's this whole other way of doing science where you share and I became known as what you're doing. Now. I'm doing now and I became known for being extremely generous with these resources and and then when I
Started my own lab. I started working on neural regeneration. I always wanted to work on this. I want to have an impact on the world. So we started working on how you repair neurons brain cells after brain damage, especially in the visual system. We've continued to make attempts to try and cure certain forms of blindness glaucoma and particular we've had some degree of success in the animal models that are now being implemented in humans and we'll see where it goes. So that's that's how the story went and and I will say a
all those years. I you know it sometimes I trained less than others, you know, there was a time when I only lifted one day a week and ran three days a week and that's the worst shape I've ever been in you see pictures of me when I was a graduation. I look very different like slim down a lot. I was just working
constantly the picture I saw today. You look like you've been lifting looks like it's going
viral right for the record. I just want to say this Camp posted a picture of me with my shirt off. Here's the thing. I never intended to take my shirt off, but I started that rock carry with a hoodie on and it quickly I was starting to
He took off the hoodie and then I had the shirt and the shirt was soaking wet mostly sweat, but some water I throw myself to and then some point I was like, I'm going to be so much more comfortable if I can just get a shirt off and be like, you know ventilating better. Right? And so I took my shirt off and like the hell with it. This rock is going to land on that Monument
come hell or high water. It touches
the ground. Yeah period yeah, so it wasn't thinking about any social media post. I was thinking about getting that rock.
On the monument and whatever happened in the meantime. Yeah, that's fine. So be it so be it so, you know, I think you know, I'm I like to think I'm benevolent and I give credit where credit's due etcetera. But also if I have a goal, you know as you do for you like I'm gonna I'm gonna hit that goal, right? I think building in a sense of determination and building up a sense of determination and and weathering it and doing hard things like learning to do hard things.
This is so
valuable. Well, I mean, I don't think that's just lip service either because you had the goal of getting the rock to the top without setting it down. And I don't you know all your other achievements in life. I don't know anything about really other than what you've said, but what I saw today you had many times to take an
out. Yeah, you offered
me many times. I said, let's trade less you just take this just whatever just to right here. You set it down right here. And as I so, I mean, you're the lessons you're
Going about I saw firsthand. It's not just it's not just talk. So I mean got my respect there for
sure. Well, thank you and Rob who was out with us as it multiple Iron Man's under his belt and I also didn't want to disappoint you or him. I also I think that doing hard things with other people's also
font. And there's a lot of fun. I have
to say and people might go how is that fun? Well, then you haven't done it, right? If you do it, you know you feel closer to people and I'll tell you the
Probability of me carrying that rock up from the parking lot to that Monument. If you guys weren't there is 0 minus 1 million no chance and then today I heard something outrageous and you show me the video you carried 130-pound Rock up that thing which is bananas. Like when I think about that, I mean I have to be honest. I don't I don't think I could do it. Not not
currently I bet you could but what I like a two year.
A point we looked at all the photos of the guests on the wall and it's like every person I think we all went through almost all of them and they all have this story that stands out about the experience and I'm as I said, I'm not a Rogan I can't just sit down and have just some awesome conversation, but I can do better. I'm not saying it's awesome, but I can do better when I've shared an experience a day with somebody of working hard shooting arrows archery talking is
Egg that's that's where I'm good. You know or better I'm not saying I'm good at anything, but I'm better and so I feel like my part of this discussion is better because we shared that just like all those people in the wall. We shared something today that I'm going to tell other people about and that's that should be life. Right? I mean as a hunter that's a big part of being a hunter is telling story of the hunt to me.
This is just life. This is just what do you and I've always told people it's like whatever you're doing a life. Make sure you got good stories to tell that's it. It's like we got a great story.
I love that and I love it because there's a long tradition meaning thousands of your tradition of people doing things during the day and then convening around a fire and light or in this case. We're under the light Studio talking about it and and and tell them the stories and I
In from a colleague such in pantos at the song finale. He's done a lot of circadian biology and he said, you know this fire these evening discussions about the day have carried our species and civilization forward for a long time. I you know, I think what you just said makes me raises are an idea in the back of my head. I'm familiar with the sensation where I think there's really something fundamental to this. I mean, maybe this is part of the path forward for for Humanity is to have people gathering in the evening with neighbors.
Ours or family again and starting to like relate about the day and starting to bridge the gap because as opposed to all of us being in our own unique portals to the world through through social media, which I'm a fan of social media. I'm on social media, but maybe we should get some like evening story fireside chats going on social media. I love it you and me both and see who else will join us and just talk about like, hey, like tell me a story from today you got five minutes and yeah and hear from people.
I love it and it's just I love hearing
Stories We Love telling stories and it's like that's what keeps life interesting to me because we go through life and we have what are we doing this? That's what stands out. What are we doing? Something that somebody's want to hear about you know, and I just think it's so special and we can sit around and reminisce or remember when or today was great because it's just I don't know it just it kind of feels like it energizes you gives you meaning
Yeah, well, I think it connects us through time. Right a minute. If we are experiences during the day. We're just erased at the end of the day. I think this came up in the discussion with the U of O students to like you could just your memories were gone at the end of each day including the hard stuff. We wouldn't be worth anything connecting our experience with others and through time and relating to earlier experiences is so fundamental to who we are and how we script our life experience. I think it's yeah, you're really onto something with this. I don't quite have the
Articulation around this just yet. But again when I get that feeling on but in the back of my head on the right side of me, is there something there so I think you're onto something.
Yeah. Well, I don't know this is this has been one of the best days I've had I mean this has been so fun, and I'm so thankful for your time. I know we you know, we talked about well, we're going to start at this time. We're going to finish about this time. I've got a lot to do today and we're well past that time and it's like all good. Yeah. It's been such a great day and I just loved how
Excited you were to delve into archery. I cannot wait till we can hunt and we talked about I mentioned this up on the mountain but about, you know, your your life and like you perform a such a high level and I perform at like the basics of The
Bays no man, come on your performance in your endeavors is truly in the top Point. Well one percent I of this let's be fair. I'll say it since if you want
I
Share like the basics of humanity is killing and surviving hunting. That's like we have to do that as somebody has to do that and I want to share that just the the with you because I just feel like you could articulate it unlike almost anybody else because like is your you're studying the brain you're studying all this upper level at the highest level of humanity, but imagine if you
Could stand watch out with the basics to and it's like base level survival. I just think it just excites me to think about sharing that with you and you know hunting being successful. Yes killing an animal because we need to kill to survive life begets life and then breaking animal down and we talked about packing out weight on your back. Yes. We packed a rock today or wait today, but that's true preparers for packing an animal out after we kill it to bring it home to share with our family.
I showed you my freezer full of meat. We ate meat that it that's that's everything because without that we can't be studying the brain. You know what I mean now that
is the but that's the Bedrock and and you know, someone has to do it, right if a good the group we talked earlier about, you know Grocery and factory farm me like that's such a like a horrible
industry period and
the idea that you provide in this way. It's amazing. I will say that I'm so glad we did what we did today.
Day, it would I learned so much. I'm certain I'm going to be doing archery. I'm certain and hopefully I'll be bow hunting elk someday. I'll get a bull originally we're going to do it. I'm not being hyperbolic when I say that today was like definitely one of the best days of my life really it was I'm totally buzzing. I learned so much. I turned to Rob at one point. I was like today is like the best day. It's amazing. I learned so much new things got to do with amazing people just
Out and there's something to carry forward in terms of a skill to pursue and and really drop into and and that doesn't happen to me often. You know, I'm not like, you know, I'm going to take pick up golf now like I don't pick up new things often and want to stick with them. So I'm so grateful to you and I'm yeah today was one of the best days of my life that I'll never I'll never forget
it that means so, you know, I can't challenge you intellectually like, you know, maybe some of your colleagues or maybe
but you've been you know what you've been so hungry to pursue in life. But because you saying that is like well fuck maybe I can offer something I guess. I did you you have you give grateful you not
only have you offered you've given me so much and your team as well so much as it's hard to come up with words for me to have a difficulty coming up with words means. I'm overtaking it's hard for me to put words to it that are adequate. You know, today was amazing. I'm not going to
The same thank you. You know normally I in this podcast with handing you your new beau, but who knows where the hell it is? It's beautiful and it's bland
I can use it. It's a the I love the color.
We collect the murdered out there and that goes with your your wardrobe.
Black it with all-black thing is I always did even before I had a podcast. Yeah. I got a friend who's on Twitter day feldheim is professor at UC Santa Cruz and one day he just tweeted it out a few years ago. He always wore the black shirt. Yeah, and that's because
It's not for Johnny Cash at Joe Strummer singer from The Clash Mescalero. Is he he would give you play shows and long sleeve button down shirt. Just soaking sweat and he would never even peel up the sleeves. He would never roll up his sleeves. But here it is. Yeah.
So here here is your brand-new bow you shot so well today.
Thank you with so much ton of guidance man. This thing is beautiful. Yeah,
that's well, that will kill a bull elk. Wow. So yeah. We're
on this thing.
This feeling when you tuck that thumb under the
jaw and come back and he beat
up on that whole thing. And
yeah, yeah level up we even talked about the level the pins the peep a lot of visual cues
there. Yeah, there's the thank you for this and I'm also immensely grateful. It's beautiful.
This is your you know, you explain your purpose. This is my purpose. I love it. This is my purpose sharing the world of archery. So it's you know, this is everything to me.
Well, I can tell and the world can tell like you can't you can't fake what you do. It's clearly comes from the heart and it's like wired throughout you and you're so generous with it and gosh that Folks at the shop and you and everyone spent so much time like so much time can everything exactly right and one moment. I thought like wow like to do I deserve this, you know, and I don't know if I deserve it or not, but I'll tell you I'm going to put it to good
use good. Well, I we're going to come I'm gonna go down.
Stay with you, please do yeah, we're going to get that shoot bows in their backyard. It's going to be awesome. Thank you for coming to Eugene to Springfield to my home to the mountain with me into the bow Iraq. I appreciate you.
Well, thank you ever so much for hosting me. And again today has been phenomenal. I'm not going to be the same and for the better going forward is I said it before I'll say it again today. I was on the best days of my life and I so appreciate you so glad we met so glad we became friends. I consider you a colleague.
Get in the podcasting space and I listen. I just really appreciate you brother. All right, thank you. Brother
Hoyt Archery has been my bow hunting sponsor since 2005. And personally, I really don't care. What Bo you shoot what brand it is. I just hope that you have the same level of confidence in your equipment as I have in mind because I know if I get one opportunity with my whole weight. It's going to pay off.
